The "J" word

[Tom Storer]

I know the debate about whether to call jazz "jazz" or not has been done to death. Nevertheless, saxophonist Josh Sinton has an admirably frank blog post about it.

http://joshsinton.com/2011/06/12/the-j-word-or-bye-bye-jazz-w/

http://joshsinton.com/2011/06/19/the-j-word-redux/

His basic point of view is that the label "jazz" effectively places musicians in a scorned ghetto roped off for uncool, pointy-headed intellectuals, regardless of the content of the music so labeled. But he also says other things which he then glosses over somewhat, such as "jazz culture is not what could be termed a nurturing culture" for its practitioners. And this:

"I don’t feel wanted, needed or necessary to jazz, its traditions or its current culture. I’ve met some lovely people and played with some astounding musicians, but none of that stems from being called a 'jazz' musician. That’s just getting lucky."

Sinton plays in the diverse, hard-to-sublabel area of "jazz" that rarely if ever involves straight-ahead swing, jazz standards, and rhythm changes: not in the Marsalis wing. I wonder if his exasperation and disappointment are directly related to the Marsalisite/non-Marsalisite division in the jazz world, or if that division is an effect of the same causes rather than the cause itself.

I'd like to hear the testimony of working musicians, if possible. Is Sinton just a bitter crank or have things passed a point of no return for many musicians we would call "jazz musicians" by default but who find themselves ill served by the name?

(Note: cross-posted on another forum)

Edited July 29, 2011 by Tom Storer

[Hot Ptah]

I could not view his initial essay with that link.

[Tom Storer]

Sorry, butchered it somehow in the original message. Now corrected there.

[Hot Ptah]

It works now. The Threadgill interview (link in the comments) is also interesting.

[paul secor]

It works now. The Threadgill interview (link in the comments) is also interesting.

That is a great interview. Liked his comment: I remember when I was a kid and you used to have music lessons and there was that saying "Practice makes perfect." Practice does not make perfect; practice makes permanent.

[Shawn]

If I was wanting to make a living playing music, I don't think "jazz" would be the description I would seek out...in fact "avoid like the plague" would be more likely. I'd rather be classified as something enjoyed by more than 2% of the record buying public.

[JSngry]

I gotta laugh anymore when people complain about not having gigs and then almost immediately follow it up with something like "what I do is not something most people are going to like".

Hey baby, wanna go out for dinner? Before you answer, let me warn you that you're probably going to find me repulsive, weird, and you're probably going to want to go home early. So, how does 7:30 sound?

[Tom Storer]

And what Shawn and Sinton are saying is that saying "I play jazz" means "I am repulsive, weird, and you're probably going to want to go home early"... to 98% of the music-buying public. In other words, even if you think that people would agree you play jazz, you should avoid mentioning it and hope they don't notice.

[JSngry]

I think that if you want to please people, then you should do what pleases the people you're trying to please. Hoping that you can do something that doesn't but wondering if maybe you can fool them into liking it by calling it something else, that's a pretty dumb idea.

People aren't that stupid, not usually.

[Shawn]

I heard jazz described as "music for the old folks home" recently, I was going to mount an argument, but then realized I didn't have much ammunition to counteract the unfortunate accuracy of that remark.

[paul secor]

I heard jazz described as "music for the old folks home" recently, I was going to mount an argument, but then realized I didn't have much ammunition to counteract the unfortunate accuracy of that remark.

I'm not a musician, but I feel musicians should call their music whatever they choose to. Or not name it if they choose to.

[JSngry]

We called Quartet Out "Post-Apocalyptic Be-Bop" whenever possible. People who liked the sound of that tended to come out, those who didn't stayed away. Win-win.

The only issues we really ran into was with calling it "jazz". "Jazz Fans" & "The Jazz Industry" expected something that sounded a certain way, which was not how we sounded. So we pretty much decided early on to say fuck them and pursue alternative routes. Never really "made it", but we played some music of which I am proud, and it pleased people who wanted to hear music like that, which in turn pleases me to this day, all of it.

Really, in the absence of a cohesive market & marketing system (absent in both us as a band and "them" as "them") what more can you ask?

[papsrus]

Isn't one problem that the average person associates the term 'jazz' with the kind of low-energy music performed by the Kenny G's of the world? Basically background music, in the minds of many folks.

Or maybe just as bad, Wynton retooling material that's a half century old.

I'd say that a band like Reptet, for instance, that plays a kick-ass brand of music that people can move to in a club, isn't the first thing that pops into most folks' minds when you utter the term 'jazz.' And for those who might respond, "Well, that isn't strictly speaking jazz," there you go.

[Shawn]

The perception of jazz I think is harmed more by "dinner jazz" and "lounge jazz", bland, predictable, safe and non-invasive background music at upscale restaurants, hotel bars and coffee shops.

[Ted O'Reilly]

The perception of jazz I think is harmed more by "dinner jazz" and "lounge jazz", bland, predictable, safe and non-invasive background music at upscale restaurants, hotel bars and coffee shops.

...AND, "jazz" radio stations...

A local outlet is advertising for a new morning announcer, and after looking at the job requirements, a man emailed the program director "when does one need knowledge of jazz when the station has become a pop station with a rotation playlist??"

The PD's response: "Your [sic] right. We are attempting to build a bridge for new listeners with songs that are jazz influenced." (Pretty bad sentence structure, but I think I know what he means).

Now, I'd say that implicit in the listener's remarks is a touch of displeasure with the current content, but the PD continues, somewhat obliviously "We hope youll [sic] continue to listen. If youre [sic] seriously interested in applying for the Morning Host position please read the criteria in our ad and directions in how to send it." (Not quite sure I get "...directions in how to send it" either, but...)

By the way, the station has a daily featured show called Dinner Jazz.