frankie

Yeah, he's pretty amazing. A lot of folks dont know about him it seems. FHS

I caught a show of his a few months back. very serious music. Seems very studious. Any thoughts?

[ For Jack DeJohnette, maybe one of his sessions with Charles Lloyd. I'll say The Flowering of the original Charles Lloyd Quartet from 1966 with Keith Jarrett and Cecil McBee.

FWIW, I also got the feeling that Sonny didn't approach this performance with the aim of "beating" or "cutting" or "outplaying" Trane. Instead the whole thing has a friendly tone about it -- very different than "The Eternal Triangle" w/Sonny Stitt. Guy

incredible. does anyone know where the link of Gonsalves falling asleep in Dukes band during a performance. i heard it was on youtube somewhere. thanks, FHS

Tyondai Braxton is pretty special. He is definitely Anthony's kid, but seems not interested in flaunting that link. which is fine. He's something all on his own. I'd highly suggest you catch him any chance you get. Same goes for Jeff Parker. I was just listening to one of his last releases "Like Coping" earlier today. he's a fine writer and thinker from the posts I've seen on his myspace page www.myspace.com/peffjarker

[and an extrapolation of the seedier parts of what used to be the hip-hop subculutre, amplified themselves into something grotesque).

I'm not connected to Matana Roberts in any way;except in just probably being too much of an overzealous goofy fan who has seen her perform many many times now. You might however want to direct your apology not so much towards me, but directly to Matana herself as I contacted her through her website and asked her if she would consider commenting on this forum. She apparently had already been made aware of the forum by a couple of other folks and has declined my encouragement to chime in as far as I can tell. She said that she found our debate a little too "crazy" as to garner a decent response. I'll try to prod her to see your apology here. In the meantime, without her permssion mind you, ( sorry matana) here is a cut and paste of the email she sent me when I asked her directly about her ideas on her visual representation in jazz music: "...as far as my clothing appearance is concerned : i like 2 express my music in visual form and this changes 4 each particular situation. It is part of the music 2 me.( The outfit in question by the way is not a ballerina outfit-- The skirt is made by one of my favorite local designers and the shirt i made myself, unfortunately the way this photo was taken it gives a different impression.) i am not in2 costuming-- costuming is 4 October 31st. i am in2 artistic evolution through style/ avant design/couture fashion/ pushing of stylistic boundaries/ turning gender based stylistic pop cultural stereotypes references completely on thier head ( i have a lot of fun with this--as evidenced in that silly photo on the forum site, that was taken without my knowlege by the way) and in some recent cases the idea of art as dress and dress as ritual of testification. i am also very interested in the way non american cultures use music combined with dress as a way 2 enhance spiritual celebration. And finally at this time in my artistic process I am in2 the idea of dress as a way 2 sometimes channel and honor those folks whose blood, sweat and tears I stand on so that i may be allowed to express myself in whatever way that i choose. i'm messing around with a history of visual black style and aesthetics that personally 4 me traveled from Africa to native America by way of France, Spain, Ireland and England--particulary in relation 2 the jazz art form, that i don't expect 4 many folks 2 understand, but that in many ways is part of my blood familial legacy-- my grandmother who grew up in the south in the 20's and 30's said it best " well we couldn't look like the honkies, but at least we could dress better than 'em". Real freedom was seen through education and appearance as a way 2 show strength, integrity, and power as well as just great style. This is a tradition that i feel has gotten lost in the disgusting over commercialization of African American style, but thats a whole other commentary entirely. Regardless I work hard 2 comment musically and visually on my familial legacy, and the positive attributes that this has provided me every time i step on a stage anywhere in the world. In my dress for performances I'm honestly just trying to celebrate my life's freedoms and lives past that made those freedoms possible through my art." There you have it folks. Onwards! Thanks for the apology, no hard feelings on my end. FHS

(Olu Dara's son, Marion Brown's son (etc.) are all engaged--creatively--in other timely musical pursuits). that has a lot to do with the fact that hip hop-- especially the under ground stuff has a similiar political message that the avantgeniuses of the 70's had. AACM- Great Black Music..... No one in todays younger generations of the avant side is really stepping up to speak on issues of opressed peoples. Atleast not yet. I think this music has lost its social message because its so hard to get by now a days as an artist.

But no here seems to be really dealing with the racial divide head on. Sorry to have to bring it back to that. On one of Matana's website pages she speaks of the fact that the International Association of Jazz Education has "black caucus", and laments about the strangeness of that. Honestly I didn't believe it until I looked into it myself. I'd like to know your thoughts on why this music is not touching the descendants of the forbearers of this kind of music. The fact that it touched someone like Matana or say Guillermo Brown puzzles me as well. But the fact that an International jazz organization has to have a section dedicated to racial diversity amongst an art form that in many ways wa brought forth by american black people, I find this troubling. Though maybe I don't really completely understand as I'm from the islands( Haiti)....

no that was pretty constructive-- just to the point. I mean say what u will about Wynton-- i don't really care much for him-- but i feel that he is carrying on a section of the jazz legacy thats important. And frankly more people are aware of him than artists like Matana and her cronies. Maybe we need a "wynton" of the avantgarde? Maybe Ornette is now that person. I don't know.... a friend pointed out that it has a lot to do with black folks not wanting thier kids to be "entertainers", but i think it goes a lot deeper than that. And i'm gonna say the dirty words first: "jazz education" any thoughts?

I guess when I see her and also hear some of her contemporaries I wonder-- as person of african diasporic roots-- what has happened to the black avant-garde community that was so strong a while back, that you would have think would have spawned an even stronger legacy among up and coming generations of black artists. She seems to be part of a very thinnnig rank. Anyone have any constructive thoughts on that?

is he still alive?

I agree. She is a solid player. not really a techinical nut it seems, more of a sound player I think. Groundbreaking? maybe not, or atleast not yet in my ears. But I think she is well on her way. As she is developing with a steadiness that speaks to a certain kind of artistic integrity that I've only seen in some of my most cherished heroes.

Frankie, Hang around here. People sometimes get "involved" in these discussions/arguments, it's nothing personal. Guy Thanks for the note. Needed to hear that as this posting experience made me and my wife feel pretty disturbed.

what do you mean? I mean that her playing, while aware of those aspects of the jazz past that strike her as attractive, is rooted in the musical present as she sees it and also seems to me to have a basic newness to it language-wise. In particular, she's never struck me as one of those players who makes a gesture in the direction of "the tradition" as though that ought to earn her some extra credit. thats interesting, I think that makes sense to me too. Though I hear her dealing with new language somehow I have also always heard this traditionalist aspect in her approach. And I guess it reminds me of some of her chicago forebearers... I mean not to be critical-- she still has a lot to work on musically speaking i think-- but at the same time I feel like she is constantly evolving her sound and approach in way that I hear a traditionalist type of integrity that many avant players I have heard the past few years just don't have.

what do you mean?

"Harkining back" is not my favorite mode of musical expression. I don't think I'm your "dear man". wow. okay. I'm new to this forum, and completely into a healthy debate about music which is why I joined in the first place. But it is obvious to me from your comments that you are more interested in just being really mean spirited and thats fine. We've all gotta make it through one way or the other..... I guess I just wanted to make sure that people are aware of Matana-- I didnt mean to fall into a debate about how one chooses to clothe thier body. I think we are both wasting our thoughts on that one. I'm sorry to have delved into that arena. She could wear a paper bag for all I care and I'd still want to hear her music...... What she is doing here in NYC is really special and for those who have not seen any of her recent developments you are in for a treat when you do. There is no one--atleast here-- that is making the kind of creative waves that she is, and I really believe she's a big part of a legacy that will be cherished for a very long time. Now anyone out there interested in talking about her music not her fashion choices? Would love to continue a healthy conversation about it if you have the time. thanx.

So........... you are right. that was a questionable remark on my part. I read an essay--she writes too, publishes her own collection of writings-- where she spoke pretty heavily about the gender problems she has faced in music. I think its online somewhere still. Anyway my wife pointed out after reading it that what we have seen in Ms. Roberts over the years has in some way come full circle to a complete expressiveness of her confidence in herself that seems to show in how she chooses to expresses herself visually--on stage and off. My wife could put it better.... She is celebrating her music I think in visual representation, and me thinks thats positive. And regarding men and dress-- I guess I don't completely understand your commentary--since remember " you were there"-- What about the Art Ensemble?Look at the history of musics of the world--Balinese, Indian.....Mozart wore makeup and a god damned wig....Miles had hair extensions. Pat Metheny's hair sometimes has a "costume" quality to it.... Lord knows the are ton of double standards in jazz music regarding men and women musicians... Is Hamid Drake in "costume"? What about Sunra??? Was Billes hair flower to much to take her seriously??? So Ms. Roberts can wear a dress or a skirt from time to time or put on makeup? So does joseph jaarman, Milford Graves etc etc.... In my opinion she's just continuing a tradition that came before her in albeit her own distinctive way-- and as a woman in this art form she has to reconcile a many different complex identities into her very own sensical way. But all that aside--- my dear man she's an amazing sound maker that harkins back to a sound on the horn that I feel hasn' t been around in decades--- that must count for something pretty large in your book....

Yeah, that's what I need to do. Get a friggin' grip. Go back and read my post. Edit to post: Deal with the costume shit. If you want to discuss historical AACM costumes, take me on. I was there. I know you were there which is why I find your comments odd and somewhat unkind. I don't think Robert's visual thing is about costume-- though I don't know this for certain from the many times I have seen her this is my educated guess. Now why don't you try to deal with her music, I guess is my point. You don't see the "costume" that you speak of when you listen to her sounds on your stereo? Sonny had Mohawk, and Braxton is a professor.... Was Miles in "costume" too? Don Cherry? Monk loved his hats-- every jazz musician of any great lore had expressive dress...... I'm sorry, I mean no disrespect but it just seems to me that her contribution is too important to throw out just because she chooses to decorate herself in her own distinctive way. Sorry to sound like a sexist pig here, but she is a woman afterall.

I dont think thats very nice. Just because a woman chooses to wear a short skirt on occasion doesn't neccessarily mean she's trying to use a "crutch" of any sort. The many times I've seen her perform I am pretty certain that this sort of thinking is not part of her thought in presentation. She seems to me to just be a free spirit and very confident in herself--which is something I think she needs in such a male dominated art form. If you want to see a female artist using that stuff as a crutch look at somebody like Mindy Abair... but all that aside I am just most interested in talking about her music not her "look". Lets get back to that. and to also add-- I have seen her off gig as well as on and she seems to be just as creative in dress for either situation. I think it is a natural attribute and it gives her inspiration to keep at her imaginative work-- I'm telling you that Tonic show was incredible. Though I may be putting words in her mouth there-- I have never approached her to ever inquire of such. Has anyone here? I don't give a shit about her looks. I'm looking for music to interest me. I think the "visual image" messes all that stuff up and a male could not do that. If Sonny Rollins or Anthony Braxton show up "in costume" I'll back off. But Thats where I think you don't get it, as obviously you have never heard her live. Her music speaks for itself. And I think you need to refamiliarize yourself with the great Chicago tradition from which she comes. She's a member of the AACM for crying out loud.

I dont think thats very nice. Just because a woman chooses to wear a short skirt on occasion doesn't neccessarily mean she's trying to use a "crutch" of any sort. The many times I've seen her perform I am pretty certain that this sort of thinking is not part of her thought in presentation. She seems to me to just be a free spirit and very confident in herself--which is something I think she needs in such a male dominated art form. If you want to see a female artist using that stuff as a crutch look at somebody like Mindy Abair... but all that aside I am just most interested in talking about her music not her "look". Lets get back to that. I don't give a shit about her looks. I'm looking for music to interest me. I think the "visual image" messes all that stuff up and a male could not do that. If Sonny Rollins or Anthony Braxton show up "in costume" I'll back off. But Thats where I think you don't get it, as obviously you have never heard her live. Her music speaks for itself. And I think you need to refamiliarize yourself with the great Chicago tradition from which she comes. She's a member of the AACM for crying out loud.

I dont think thats very nice. Just because a woman chooses to wear a short skirt on occasion doesn't neccessarily mean she's trying to use a "crutch" of any sort. The many times I've seen her perform I am pretty certain that this sort of thinking is not part of her thought in presentation. She seems to me to just be a free spirit and very confident in herself--which is something I think she needs in such a male dominated art form. If you want to see a female artist using that stuff as a crutch look at somebody like Mindy Abair... but all that aside I am just most interested in talking about her music not her "look". Lets get back to that.

yep. she definately has a very eccentric and fun way of trying to get dressed for her music it seems... some choices a little outlandish but I just proscribe as being a part of the youth today and the fact that I'm at an age where I still have clothes I wore 15 years ago....but i've seen her perform in many different visual fashion ensembles, and I must say she works hard to not follow any trends and just seems to be trailblazing her own way. She apparently makes a lot of her own apparel. At the tonic show she was in this floor length black gown that my wife and I thought was just stunning... but fashion choices aside her sound is one of the most beautiful I have heard in a long time. Many of her contemporaries can't really touch her in that regard in my opinion. I've got everything I could find with her on it, but most of it does not compare to her live performances which just tells me that she may not have come into the kind of support yet that would allow her to record a stellar recording, which I find a really sad state of affairs.