Alexander Hawkins

Yeah - they rehearsed that Tracey anecdote on a BBC radio documentary on Stan last week, and the tune apparently was God Save the Queen. He mentioned some of the players too...can't remember exactly, but off the top of my head, Osborne and John Stevens were mentioned...Surman? Can't recall.

Didn't mean it to be cryptic. Sorry. But just think about it - notation, theory, composition, those are all "tools" geared towards steering the creative impulse into a certain "means of expression". Doesn't mean it's "bad" or anything. but why do you need theory except as a reference point as to how things are "supposed" to sound? Why do you need notation except as a means to ensure that a certain idea gets reproduced past the moment of inspiration? Why do you need composition except as a means to create an structure of order and then preserve it? (And why preserve it? Plenty of answers to that one, some benign, some not). Again, those are all useful tools. But tools they nevertheless are. And tools are used to build. And where there's building, eventually there's zoning. And when there's zoning, the nature/impulse of the building process can't help but change, especially as the years pass and things get old and crowded. You're not building for the sake/joy of building anymore, you're looking to build something that will pass spec. And damn do those tools come in handy for that! So handy that you can buy hammers and shit at freakin' grocery stores and 7-11s now. It's taken centuries for us to get to this point, but here we are. It's inevitable, and it's nothing to get freaked about, I don't think. As one cycle ends, another begins, and the overlap will probably be a lengthy one, and may never completely disappear. But it's probably time to consider the notion that the old buildings are going to crumble and fall, and that maybe people aren't going to want or need buildings anymore. Or if they do, not the same type buidings with the same functions as the old ones. Sense of place is by no means a fixed quantity, doncha' know, and what are buildings except firm declarations of fixed space? That's probably cryptic too, and again, sorry 'bout that. But think about it anyways, ok? Didn't mean cryptic to sound critical...however, it <i>was<i> tantalising! Again, agree with much of what you've said here!

Hang on...isn't google great (he says, late to the party). Garbage in, garbage out, right? Also agree on your point about isolation. Interaction is, after all, already occurring in fields such as smart improvising programmes (thinking of George Lewis' stuff, etc.)

You're going to have to help me out with GIGO, I afraid...

Perhaps...but I guess the important thing about an interactive, 'real' environment such as the jam session is that one learns the context etc. for learned techniques, whereas in (cyber-)isolation/the isolation of the music college, there's the increased danger of painting by numbers.

Completely agree with this sentiment. I guess I was puzzled by your initial (more cryptic!) response because I naively choose to focus on the musicans IMHO who don't succumb to this type of repertory nonsense.

Just having a listen - it's a nice programme! Some very rare Mike Osborne on there too.

Or just the inevitable end of a centuries long cycle? In what sense?

At least it'll be easier for all those repertory musicians to get their college degrees now. -_-

Great - I might try to pick that up! I've seen them before, but didn't know how available (or not) they were. I seem to remember some fairly humourous margin notes about the more out stuff (is there a fairly funny aside about Braxton? Rings a bell!)

Very interesting, indeed. Not being as deeply into the poetry angle as I am the music angle, I can't say what Riley's position in it is. However, friends who publish and publish in respected journals of vanguard writing (both recent and recent past) don't know his work, which I find surprising. Mr. Red forwarded me an interesting interview with him on the subject of Derek Bailey, so I suspect his ties to the music world are greater than those to the word. It's too bad that, for purposes of this discussion, "The Whole Band" isn't what you could call "visible." I'm pretty sure Riley was at the early (Braxton/Lacy era) Company Weeks, for instance.

I would absolutely love to hear those ICP sides! What groups..! I'm very fond of 'Willi the Pig' [not a sentence I utter much..] - I think Schweizer is fantastic on it.

I also enjoy 'The African Tapes', with Tchicai, Don Moye, and Hartmut Geerken.

Tatum Ellington Bird Braxton The last one's near on impossible. Monk? Bud? Hines? Teddy Wilson? Ra? Cecil? Ornette? Muhal? Aretha? Dunno. I'll work on it.

Rumour I heard (and do check it out one way or the other before deciding, because it was just a rumour) was that it's going to be fusion-y stuff. That would figure with the Jazz Cafe thing, although by the same token, that could be the route of the rumour!

And I hear it's getting released as a box set next year. Yep - I've been lucky enough to hear some of the music, and it's really wonderful. I couldn't recommend what I heard highly enough.

Thank you - fascinating short!

This is sort of what I was getting at with the 'straw man' comment. There are a frightening number of these guys around - the 'ching ching a ching' brigade, for sure. And believe me, I share your gall towards them! But do any of us actually think of them as improvising jazz musicians? Certainly all my peers in improvisation think of these as repertory musicians. These guys are not where jazz is, even if what they play shares an amount of technical vocabulary with 'jazz'. I think this point of view has been current among a lot of musicians since the neoclassicism of the 80s?

IMHO there's a few straw men being erected here... The risk with generalisations about younger generations is clear...and if you generalise, you're almost always going to fail to notice the vanguard of anything.

Agreed - I really enjoy all the stuff I have on that label.

Another thing with some interesting directions!

As an illustration, this is a beautiful, and original, piece of work (IMHO, of course!). And certainly singable melodies in there, FWIW.

I think Braxton is still making relevant music; as are many of the people who play with him. I think the Braxton example gives the lie to the composition/improvisation dichotomy people have averted to above. People have been conquering this issue for a long while now (Ellington, Braxton, Threadgill, etc.)

'Jello on springs'