Larry Kart

Just guessing, and I haven't read Szwed's book. but my guess is that the number of people who paid attention to Ra's music in Chicago back then, small as that number might have been, was significantly larger than the number of people who paid attention to his pamphlets, lecturing/whatever etc. -- if only because, as Chuck pointed out, the city was such a " stew of prophets, pamphleteers, public declaimers, independent thinkers and crackpots." Again, I could be dead wrong here, but my guess is that if Ra's pamphlets etc. of the time were placed alongside other such material from that time from figures who, unlike Ra, made no significant further mark on the world (with names and certain dead-giveaway phrases covered over), you'd be hard-pressed to sort all this out on the basis of what's actually there, absent the associations that later Ra brings. Again, my guess is that two things are going on here -- backwards validation/attribution of weight to early Ra across the board because he later proved to be a figure of weight, plus maybe the whole "outsider art" thing, plus the investment that those who promulgate the whole "outsider art" thing have in the chunks of outsider art that they're promulgating.

Chuck, Larry, anybody, any thoughts on this aspect of a potential Ra "influence" or lack thereof? I'm no expert on the "social climate" in Chicago in the 1950s jazzwise other than how I experienced it/observed it at the time, and I didn't turn 18 until 1960 and lived in a northern suburb until I graduated from high school and went to college in Hyde Park (on the South Side), so my opportunities were somewhat limited by age and location. Part of that experience did include Sun Ra's own Transition recording when it came out in 1957. Can't say that it struck me as a big deal, the way later things like "The Magic City" would -- it sounded maybe like a melting-watches version of Dameron, with it being hard to tell whether some of what one heard was the result of adventurousness or half-assedness, both in conception and instrumental execution. I'm not saying I was right in thinking that, but it's what I recall thinking at the time. What that says, if it says anything at all, about Ra's influence at the time, cultural or musical, I don't know. Certainly some highly accomplished players were working with him -- e.g. Gilmore, Spaulding, Priester, trumpeter Art Hoyle. I would venture to say, though, that there was so much going on jazzwise in Chicago from the the mid-'50s on -- in a wide range of styles, some of them fairly "advanced" -- that it might not be wise, until proven otherwise, to read things backwards from Ra's later accomplishments and assume that he made a big impact early on in Chicago, relative to all the other things that were going on. Also, and this may be the main rub, my guess is that for someone like Roscoe, who was 18 in 1958, early key experiences were a matter of the immediate environment (older schoolmate Donald Myrick, later of Earth, Wind, and Fire), encounters with recordings he liked, schooling, etc. -- all this being reacted to by his own questing, adamant spirit. In particular, I would guess that for Roscoe et al., this was (as it was for many of us) a time when one felt that figures such as Rollins and Coltrane, then Dolphy and Ornette, were writing in letters of flame on the palace walls. One possible effect of this was to reinforce a provincialism that had not, in fact, previously been the case in Chicago versus the larger jazz world by and large -- one of the things that the AACM did, both in terms of collective attitude and individual talent, was to not surrender to/believe in/give in to/what have you that template and be by and large right in doing so; that is, the music made matched the attitude, though perhaps George Lewis's book will go into the chicken-egg aspects of this. IIRC, based on brief glancing encounters with Roscoe in particular in the mid-1960s, he gave off every indication that he felt that he stood at the virtual center of the musical universe. As Miles I think said of Sonny Payne: "Looking good is half the battle." But Roscoe I believe gave that impression because he was, in effect, splitting atoms in his lab; he was very busy/determined because he needed to be.

Sorry -- that should be Boomie Richman.

The Muggsy Spanier-Bud Freeman V-Disc sessions on Storyville is a gem. Some fine Lou McGarity, and this is the most inventive Peanuts Hucko I've heard (eventually he became, or seemed to me, something of a routiner). Multiple takes of some tunes, for those who don't like that, but I found a lot of freshness on, for one, the three takes of "You Took Advantage of Me," especially from Bud. V-Disc lengths (typically close to five minutes/track) are a plus. On the Bud date, Yank Lawson sounds like he's wielding a blowtorch at times. Nice to hear tenorman Boomie Richmond on the first date, with Pee Wee also in the front line there and taking some bizarre chances (even by his own standards). On "Pat Blues," I think, Pee Wee does what sounds like a slap-toned thing that is just nutty and not like any slap-toned playing I've ever heard from anyone (if in fact it is slap-toned; if not, I give up).

Skeleton.

Corbett quote from the above: "A lot of the Art Ensemble were aware of the Arkestra’s presence and would go watch them play before they left in 1961. Malachi Favors (founding Art Ensemble member) even rehearsed with the Arkestra a couple of times. What’s interesting about that is that Malachi introduced the ‘little instruments’ concept to the Art Ensemble, and it comes from Arkestra. If you listen to the 1958-59 Arkestra recordings, you can hear this. It’s a South Side independent grassroots music thing.” Actually, that last sentence should read: "It’s a South Side independent grassroots music thing, man.”

Oops. I'm confused about the nanny , i watched the first half or at least a good chunk of it . Did the nanny say he was at the party ? On the late news last night they were still saying that mcnamee was lying about that . Nanny's account clashes with Clemens' says the headline http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20...sp&c_id=mlb

And for those new truths to prevail, all who were there then and remember will be denigrated or dismissed on the basis of their alleged "interests." Report to your local re-education centers; you know who you are.

I think McGarity could be described as "rather unknown" only if your experience of jazz trombone began with J.J. Johnson. McGarity was prominently featured on lots of Condon and Condon-related sides, plus he got lots of spots with Goodman and was celebrated among those who paid attention to sidemen.

Second thoughts on the Duke Jordan Storyville. Having listened to it all now, it's very nice, though not quite at the level of the solo albums he did for Steeplechase in the 1980s.

That Getz-Coltrane encounter on "Rifftide" (with Oscar Peterson, Paul Chambers, and Jimmy Cobb) is fun. Must have been about 1958?

Great show -- choked me up unexpectedly a couple of times e.g. Monk's verbal intro to "Pannonica," followed by the piece. One error: It's said that Nica's New Jersey apartment was formerly that of Josef von Sternberg, famous film director and husband of Marlene Dietrich. Von Sternberg and Dietrich were not husband and wife.

This rather lengthy article makes as much sense as anything I've read on the subject: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/12/l...ca_n_85794.html

Tippett's Piano Concerto -- I fell in love with that work about 40 years ago, thanks to John Ogdon-Colin Davis recording. Just picked up the new Stephen Osborne 2-disc set on Hyperion, with the concerto (cond. by Martyn Brabbins) and the four piano sonatas. First movement of the concerto (all I've tried so far) sounded a bit literal-mind and earthbound to me (this is a "poetic" work in the best sense), but I can't get at the Ogdon-Davis right now to compare. Also have one with Tippett conducting and M. Tirmio (sp?), which I don't recall very well. Did hear some orchestral details in the new Osborne performance that were new to me, but... And the sound seemed a bit congested.

But didn't Clemens' people compile the stats/charts they originally promulgated in an attempt to demonstrate that his big late-career uptick was not an anomaly?

I've been disappointed by the little I've heard of that one so far; just perfunctory statements of themes, a chorus of embellishment, theme and out.

Definitely on the plus side are the Goodman and the Mildred Bailey. That 1946 Goodman band was excellent, especially the bass-drum team of Harry Babisin and Louis Bellson. The groove that Bellson gets into behind BG and then the ensemble at the end of "Rattle and Roll" is something else. He sounds different than he would later on -- earthy and guttural, not so smooth. His final break there ... I'd like to to know what other drummers think of it. It's like he's whirling in two contrary directions at once; may or may not be awesome in pure drum terms, but it sure works musically. Reminds me of Shadow Wilson's famous vertigo-inducing break on Basie's "Queer Street." Bailey -- what a soulful, creative, swinging singer. And I love her speaking voice too, that drawling accent, like she's humming inside every word. And her radio show band was pretty impressive, with Red Norvo, Teddy Wilson, Charlie Shavers, Remo Palmieri, Al Hall, and Specs Powell at its core (virtually the combo that would make "Congo Blues," et al. that year, 1945, with Bird and Diz), and the full orchestra's string section was uncommonly good and unsoupy.

Hope it's not too late, but I now know from experience that the previous warning to avoid the Tubby Hayes should have been followed. By that time in his life he sadly had very little left, had a hard time getting enough air through the horn. Also to be avoided is the Howard McGhee-Teddy Edwards. Goodish Edwards, but McGhee is in horrible shape -- every phrase is fumbled, intonation is shocking, and you haven't lived until you've heard an out-of-tune trumpet. It borders on a date that should never have been released or allowed to go forward.

That's a typo for E. Parker McDougal. Chuck told an amusing story about him here: http://www.organissimo.org/forum/index.php...amp;hl=McDougal A fine player.

Tapping her would be an accomplishment in one sense -- like breaking into a cave where the world's entire supply of PMS was stored -- but not much fun, I reckon. I think otherwise! Film at 10.

No wonder Ellis died young; several numbers like this per night would take a year or two off right there. I love Ellis' conducting toward the end; looks like he might turn himself into a pretzel. Anyone know the provenance of the performance? A shame if there's only this.

Agreed. She should have adopted a Bre'r Rabbit posture.

I forgot that one.

He has been, and there's fine music there, but Finzi's setting of Wordsworth's "Intimations of Mortality" when it gets rip-roaring exuberant, seems ludicrous to me, the English massed-choirs tradition at its most square and gallumphing. Try movements 5 and 12: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_m/103-25...p;x=12&y=17 On the other hand, putting Wordsworth to music probably isn't going to work, no matter what. The words not only don't need need music but seem to outright resist it. I can imagine an instrumental response to Wordsworth from a non-existent English Debussy.

Hey, I know Halvorson from a Taylor Ho Bynum album I can't get at right now because the basement's all f----- up. She's really good.