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erhodes
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Posts posted by erhodes
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on the program I use - Steinberg Wavelab - it does not apply compression, though that is another way to normalize a wave file - I suspect with these guys it is basically a method of trying to make sure levels are consistent - and a lazy way out, as to do this correctly and in a way that is sonically best, one needs to listen to the LP, find a peak passage, and set levels accordingly (though somewhat risky, this assumes that the LP will be internally consistent, and that other passages will not overload - and in 15 years of doing this I've never had a problem with an LP transfer ) -
I use both Wavelab and Sound Forge to normalize, though I generally use the Sound Forge utility because, even though it is not a real time editor, the interface is easier to read and I seem to have more control over levels. My understanding is that all that a normalization utility does is apply a constant amount of gain to the selected waveform so that the highest peak value becomes whatever you set when you configure the utility. E.g., if I set it at -1 db the utility will apply sufficient gain to the selection such that the highest peak value is -1 db. This can be a useful thing to do but not for equalizing real or apparent volume between two selections. In other words, just because two selections are both normalized to -1 db does not mean they will have the same apparent loudness. As Allen points out, it depends on the instruments, whether the passage was soft or loud to begin with, the internal dynamic range of the passage and a million other considerations.
The problem I have had with Wave Lab is that my version will not allow me to normalize to fractions of a db, e.g. -.1 db, which is what I can do in Sound Forge. The problem I have had in Sound Forge is that the utility is not always accurate and sometimes applies to much gain, so that the highest peaks are clipped. I've resorted to using the analysis tool to find the highest peak and simply applying sufficient gain to take it to -.1 db. The analysis tool seems more accurate than the analysis done by the normalizaton utility, though I can't figure why this should be true.
Normalization has been useful to me as a final step in maximizing gain after a file has been edited and after one is satisfied that the internal dynamic contrasts are what they should be. It is all but useless as a tool for equalizing apparent loudness.
I should add, per Allen's comment about listening to the lp and finding a (the) peak passage, that I have virtually no control over the absolute volume of the initial analogue to digital transfer...something about the driver for my sound card. All of my lp's...in fact all of my analogue sources...generate wav files with peak values several db's below 0. So I edit and then maximize/normalize as a final step.
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Interesting that you started with the live Brown/Roach material from '54. You've gotten the advice you need on the studio dates, though I would add the one under Rollins name. I think the original title was "Sonny Rollins plus 4", though it was reissued under the title "Three Giants".
Philology had a series called "Brownie's Eyes" which ultimately ran to more than 30 volumes of live material and outtakes from various studio dates. The "Brownie's Eyes" disks are long OOP but it seems that some of the Brown/Roach material has been re-booted. Some of these titles have been mentioned on other recent Rollins threads but I would recommend you consider "More Live at the Bee Hive" (MSI), "Clifford Brown at the Cotton Club" (Lonehill), and "Clifford Brown/Max Roach, The Last Concert" (RLR). I can't speak for the sound quality because I have it all from Philology (which was generally fair to poor except for the "More Live at the Bee Hive" set, which was pretty good) but the performances are incredible.
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Now if I can only persuade them to put out a DVD of all the film shot by Tom Reichman at Lennie's On The Turnpike of Mingus, only a small percentage of which was used in the documentary, "Mingus." I know there's a lot more, because I was there that day.
Do you know if the additional film footage still exists? Did Reichman preserve the negative and the original audio tape? Aside from it's importance for the Mingus discography/videography, this is an important entry for John Gilmore as well.
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I got this new release email from Amazon. An interesting compilation of his Europe appearances...
Soneymoon
Sonny Rollins
Release Date: October 2, 2007
Album Details
This Amazing Double Album Collects Some of the Best Sessions from the Height of the European ‘season of Jazz’ When Many of the Best American Jazzmen Sought and Found Refuge and Comfort in the Smoky Dark Venues of Existentialist Mitteleuropa, Away from the High Tension of the Violent Civil Rights Battles Raging Back Home. Recorded Between 1963 and 1966, These Live Gigs Performed by the Sonny Rollins/Don Cherry Quartet (Paris, January, 1963); The Sonny Rollins Quintet with Members of the Modern Jazz Quartet (Berlin, Oct. 30, 1965); And the Sonny Rollins Trio (Graz, Austria, Nov. 12, 1966) Showcase the Magnificent Sounds that Made Rollins One of the Top Horn Players of his Day and One of the Most Interesting, Prolific, and Long-lasting Jazz Icons of all Time.
EDIT: BTW, the label is "Get Back Italy". Hmmm.......
This material has been booted before. The 1/19/63 Paris date came out on lp on Unique Jazz and on cd on Magnetic and JazzUp (there may be more). I believe the Berlin set is partly on Unique Jazz UJ 29, though the lp lists Kenny Drew on piano rather than John Lewis. The trio portion of the Graz concert was split between that album and Jazz Connoisseur JC 108. The description of the new release sounds like straight up boot speech to me. The question is what is the source material and sound quality. The JazzUp releases were barely listenable. Also, the Graz concert came out a step or half step fast, presumably so they could fit tracks on one side of an lp. It will be interesting to see whether the Graz portion of the new release has the same problem. If it does, that suggests a needle drop.
Speed problems aside, the version of "Lover" from Graz comes as close as anything ever does to being my favorite Rollins solo. For those unfamiliar with this material, it should be noted that it is not just any trio. The drummer is Max Roach and the performance of Max's own group from the same Graz date has also been preserved. It would seem that Max's group would perform and then Max's horn players and pianist would leave the stage and Sonny would do a set with Max and Jimmy Meritt. There are also recordings of the trio on the same tour from Paris and Copenhagen and a quartet performance that includes Roach's pianist, Ronnie Matthews, from Reading University in England. Spectacular stuff.
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Applebaum also brought along some video finds, including the only footage ever shot inside Birdland, for the Steve Allen show, featuring Basie's band, as well as an NET broadcast of Cecil Taylor's group, from a program hosted by Martin Williams. Wild!
The Taylor was shot at the Village Gate on September 10, 1965. The audio was issued on Ozone 19 as was the Mingus material from the same broadcast. There are two Taylor tracks: "Number One" and "Octagonal Skirt and Fancy Pants". I believe Taylor plays around inside the piano using a birdcage.
Glad to hear that the video has survived. Does he also have the Mingus?
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saw this really budget cd for 5 big ones today: 1st 3 cuts is sonny/don cherry in stolkholm, the last three are sonny/don w/ our man higgins, i think it said NYC-- they do the Star Spangled Banner/Oleo/St. Thomas on that part i remember-- of the dates was 63, the other 62, or was it 64 and 63--- anyways i think the cd was labled WITHOUT A SONG-- really cheapo label, but do you guys know about these dates, is it radio b'cast material prob? i dont buy a lot of sonny really but i kind of want it just to see what master higgins does on st. thomas!!!
There are 7 live recordings of the Rollins-Cherry band from 1962-63 in addition to "Our Man In Jazz":
8/7/62, NYC
1/15/63, Copenhagen
1/17/63, Stockholm
1/19/63, Paris (2 concerts)
1/20/63, Rome
1/29/63, Stuttgart
Billy Higgins is the drummer on all of them. Henry Grimes is the bassist on the '63 dates. Bob Cranshaw is on the '62 session. All of this material except Rome has been bootleged numerous times on both lp and cd: Moon, Landscape, Bandstand, JazzUp, Jazz Anthology, Unique Jazz, Jazz Connoisseur, Magnetic. The sound on all of them is fair to poor whatever the source. None of them sound like "Our Man In Jazz", mostly but not entirely due to the audio quality. I've never seen a bootleg of the Rome date but there is a five minute clip of "52nd Street Theme" on Youtube with Sonny wearing a white dinner jacket.
As long as I'm at it, there are three studio tracks by the Grimes edition of the band from 2/20/63 that RCA has issued on various compilations.
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Teddy Edwards
right!
The liner notes to the original lp state that it was Sonny Stitt, who played with the band for six weeks on both alto and tenor. Teddy Edwards was the first tenor player to record with the band, not the first one to play with them.
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Hah...Clem...
I would never use that tone about Spaulding but that's me not him...an affection born out of things that have little to do with this thread. But Clem raises interesting issues...
My first thoughts are, yeah but compared to what (I always like the title better than the tune). This board is full of lengthy threads about people who I find no more compelling that Spaulding. E.g., there was all this all this talk about how Joe Zawinal is a "giant", "bad mf"...I saw him with Cannonball before he went WR. I have most of WR's studio dates. I like the music...I like Earth, Wind and Fire too but I'd never start a thread on Maurice White the giant and not because of Clem, either. I mean, Cecil Taylor is a giant. Period. There are a whole lot of other piano players in the last 40-50 years and most of what is said about them has more to do with the use value that the sayer has for what they are doing than anything else...
James Spaulding could lend as much to a group as Benny Maupin...I saw him back in the day, too...but there are all these posts about Benny, largely, I think, because he played with Miles...which, BTW, I consider to be some of his least important work.
My view of Spaulding is analagous to JSngry's...he can play but I'm not going to the wall about it.
The other piece is about where it fits. Clem, I think, raised the spector of Roscoe Mitchell in his list of what Spaulding is not. Roscoe is one of the great conceptual innovators in jazz post Ornette, Trane, etc...IMO, the last great one. He's also a mf of an alto player. But on the latter piece, there are others right there with him, including some of Cuscuna's screaming pretenders, e.g., Byard Lancaster, who I also saw and who could blow the doors off of most of the people this board devotes threads to (I can't speak to how he plays now). Comparing Spaulding to Mitchell...or Lancaster...as an alto player is a different...what...kettle of fish...
When JSp made all of those Blue Notes there was a little space for someone who was not playing like Cannon, JMac, Lou Donaldson circa the 50's but who was not ready to go out there with Charles Tyler and company...and Roscoe. And that space was on Blue Note and got a lot of play because BN got a lot of play, while most of the alto players were someplace else...e.g., Tchicai and, maybe, early Sonny Simmons, and, maybe, early Ken McIntyre, and Byron Allen...who could play...and, OTOH...Marion Brown, Tyler, Lancaster, Arthur Jones, Robin Kenyatta, Noah Howard, Monty Waters, Roscoe, Jarman, Braxton (1st edition), Ken Mac circa "Unit Structures" (a mf of an alto solo on "Steps")... That BN window was actually a very small space. The only other cats that got in there...after James...were Gary Bartz and Sonny Fortune.
So...Clem...would you crack the same way about Fortune? If you did, I might hear that... Might... OTOH...Tyler? Intersting question, at least. And what's the criteria? That a guy hangs in there long enough to record a string of albums...or that a "concept" emerges...like "Sound"? Except, no one else really "emerged" with a concept like that. So are all of the rest of them just a little better than mediocre?
See, I have little use for JSngry's reference point from the practice of a professional musician...because many if not most of the musicians that are lauded in those terms make music that doesn't move me. But, at another level, I respond when I'm in front of a guy and he's playing...it's about what happens when he puts the horn in his mouth. Not whether or not Sngry can tell me he's "lipping" and that's difficult to do but what I hear and feel. And at that level I've heard as much from Spaulding as I have from people who get much more ink. And I heard a hell of a lot from the "screaming pretenders"...even after Trane died.
I prefer Byard Lancaster to James Spaulding but I prefer Spaulding to Sonny Fortune. I knew someone back in the day who said that Gary Bartz came along and took Spaulding out...basically set up ownership of that little BN ledge where "acceptably out" alto players could reside. Interesting...because a lot of other folks who went to see Bartz around that time said the records were misleading and Gary had a little sound that couldn't be heard over the drums. But this cat...the Bartz promoter...didn't know who Byard was and wasn't including any of that in the mix.
I saw Spaulding and Arthur Jones at Slug's. I preferred Arthur, too, but I'd advise folks to be carefuly about dismissing Spaulding. And here I converge with JSngry. But Byard has just a few, mostly forgettable albums under his own name and nothing approaching a "concept" like...forget Roscoe...Braxton's or Threadgill's or...who else? But..."back in the day"...Byard would have made a lot of folks look like good candidates for the post office.
Clem...I owe you responses on about a year's worth of posts...but I'm too tired and lazy to do the right thing. Don't know how I got here except that I have this image of Spaulding playing in a group with Bobby Hutcherson circa '68 or thereabouts. It didn't change my life but I had no complaints...which was something in an of itself.
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What Niko said. It's right there in the sessionography; I didn't add anything (although I corrected a couple of typos).
The sessionography hasn't been updated since January 2003 though, so the discovery isn't so recent anymore.
Muchas gracias. I was looking at the separate files and the one for 65-67 (is that it?) did not have the note.
Since these are Impulse studio sessions and the notes say "rumoured to be released sometime in the future", I assumed when I first read about it that the tapes were in the posession of the Coltrane estate, which has had other tape reels of unissued studio recordings that Coltrane took home. What else? Some collector somehow acquired these sessions and neither Universal nor the Coltrane estate has them? I don't know if that's possible. Weren't there rumours while Alice Coltrane was still alive, that she wanted to trickle unissued Coltrane material out, so we would get one new release a year or so? We just got the Coltrane At Newport thing, so perhaps these studio recordings are in the pipeline in the coming years? But with the record industry implosion, and the staff layoffs at Verve, who knows?What you said.
Since the Guernsey's auction, it seems that various members of Coltrane's immediate and extended family have different things. It's not clear who has what...or how much they want for what they have.
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I went to Trane's wake...and cried like a baby. I'm still crying...
The funeral director was a close friend of my family. His daughter did the arrangements for my mother. They have both passed...
I keep a ton of Trane on my ipod. From '67 I have "Offering", "Venus", and the "Olatunji" material. I gravitate towards "Ogunde" from the latter. I listen to it when it suits my mood...and when things get tense and Trane is the only thing that cools me out...
One of my playlists is "My Favorite Trane". It starts with "Trinkle Tinkle" and ends with...I think..."Venus".
A luta continua...
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Actually that's not true any longer since two later studio sessions have been discovered, including one recorded one month after the Olatunji concert. Here are the unissued studio sessions from 1966-67, taken from Allan J. Sutherland's Coltrane Sessionography.
I checked Allan's sessionography here and the one thing I didn't find was the note about "recently discovered". So I did some checking...
It's not clear who might be in possession of these tapes and what the logistics of a release would ultimately be. I am hopeful but, at this stage, I wouldn't take anything to the bank.
SS...if you care to elaborate or, at least, point me towards the "recently discovered" note on Allan's site...
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I've just purchased "Ornette Coleman Quintet-Complete Live at the Hillcrest Club" and I'm really liking it. Sound is ok (piano off mike a lot) and packaging nice. However what they call "Ramblin'" is not, though Rambin does appear titled "When Will the Blues Leave". So can anyone who's heard this tell me what is the song they call Ramblin? "When will the Blues Leave?" maybe?
Also is there a good bio of Ornette? I've always thought that he played at the Hillcrest before recording for Contemporary but what I've found on-line makes me think he had already recorded before meeeting Paul Bley and the gang. Am I wrong? Certainly his first Contemporary recordings were made a few months before this recording from the Hillcrest.
Both "Ramblin'" and "When Will the Blues Leave?" are on the original lp, so they may have been cross labeled on the cd.
John Litweiler's "Ornette Coleman: A Harmelodic Life" is perhaps the definitive Coleman bio, though it has been justly criticized for giving Coleman credit for the invention of water.
The first Contemporary recording, "Something Else", was recorded quite a few months before the Hillcrest date, well before Ornette was introduced to Bley. I believe it was Billy Higgins that first brought Ornette and Don Cherry to sit in at the Hilcrest, though I believe this story has been told with several different twists on those details. AFAIK, this was his first interaction with Bley.
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Thanks Ed! I'm still confused--my CD is an ZYX...It has 3 cuts--one of which is "Exhibition"--no "Mephisopheles"--I don't hear Maupin on Exhibition...Should I listen again?
Maybe he's in that melody? but no solo!!! Weird!I hear alto sax--cup mute trumpet(cornet) +?
I haven't listened to the track that's supposed to be "Mephistopheles" but, as I understand it, the alto/trumpet track you are referring to is that title. My reference for this is here. Here is the entry for this recording.
Marion Brown: Marion Brown Quartet
November 1965
New York City
In November 1965, Marion Brown recorded two sessions for ESP-DISK', featuring Alan Shorter, Rashied Ali, Reggie Johnson and Ronnie Boykins on Marion Brown's compositions "Capricorn Moon", "27 Cooper Square" and "Exhibition", as well as one composition by Alan Shorter, "Mephistopheles". For "Exhibition", Bennie Maupin was added to the line-up. "Mephistopheles" was left off of initial pressings of the LP because it was thought to be Wayne Shorter's composition, replacing "Exhibition" on subsequent issues of the recordings though the track listing on the LP cover and disk labels remained unchanged.
The first series of releases (a-g) contain the three Marion Brown compositions:
(a) ESP-DISK' 1022 (US) [released 1966] [cover]
(b) ESP-DISK' 1022 STEREO (US) [released 1966] [cover]
1. Capricorn Moon (Marion Brown)
2. 27 Cooper Square (Marion Brown)
3. Exhibition (Marion Brown)
Marion Brown (as)
Alan Shorter (tp) (tracks 1, 2)
Bennie Maupin (ts) (track 3)
Reggie Johnson (b)
Ronnie Boykins (b) (track 1)
Rashied Ali (dr, perc)
* White front label; b/w back label: Photo of Marion Brown, taken from the cover. Address on white label: ESP-DISK', 180 Riverside Dr., New York 10024; Address on back cover: ESP-DISK', 180 Riverside Drive, New York 10024.
* Bennie Maupin is spelled "Benny Maupin" on the cover.
* No track times given on the labels and covers.
© ESP-DISK' 1022 (US) [released 1966] [cover]
(d) ESP-DISK' 1022 STEREO (US) [released 1966] [cover]
* Address on both white labels: ESP-DISK', 156 5th Avenue, New York 10010; Address on back cover: ESP-DISK', 180 Riverside Drive, New York 10024.
* Same cover as (a, b).
(e) Fontana ESP-DISK' SFJL.930 (UK) [released 1967] [cover]
* Same tracks and personnel as (a-d).
* Vinyl weight varies.
(f) ESP-DISK' STEREO 1022 (US) [released ?] [cover, back cover]
* Same as (a-d), but vinyl put in monaural cover with red "STEREO" sticker on front cover.
* New pressing on thinner vinyl (138 gram)
* Address on both white labels: ESP-DISK', 156 5th Avenue, New York 10010; Address on back cover: ESP-DISK', 180 Riverside Drive, New York 10024.
(g) ESP-DISK' STEREO 1022 (US) [released 1972] [cover, back cover]
* Same as (a-d), but "Marion Brown" added in white uppercase on front cover and new address on back cover: ESP-DISK', Acorn Hill House, Krumville, New York 12447.
* No catalogue number printed on back cover.
* New pressing on thinner vinyl (119 gram).
* Address on both white labels: ESP-DISK', 156 5th Avenue, New York 10010; stereo label on A-Side ("STEREO 1022"), monaural label on B-Side ("1022").
On later issues (h-p) "Exhibition" was replaced by Alan Shorter's "Mephistopheles" though on most releases the track is still called "Exhibition" (with the exception of (h)) and the personnel listing still includes Bennie Maupin:
(h) ESP-DISK'/Nippon Phonogram BT-5008 (J) [released 1975] [cover, back cover]
1. Capricorn Moon (Marion Brown)
2. 27 Cooper Square (Marion Brown)
3. Mephistopheles (Alan Shorter)
Marion Brown (as)
Alan Shorter (tp)
Reggie Johnson (b)
Ronnie Boykins (b) (track 1)
Rashied Ali (dr, perc)
* "Exhibition" replaced by "Mephistopheles" on track 3.
* Bennie Maupin is erroneously listed in addition to Alan Shorter on track 3 on the cover and the disk labels.
* "Mephistopheles" is erroneously credited to Marion Brown.
* No track times given on the cover and disk labels.
(i) ESP.DISK/BASE ESPS 1022 (I) [released 1980] [cover photo, back cover photo]
1. Capricorn Moon [22:18] (Marion Brown)
2. 27 Cooper Square [3:45] (Marion Brown)
3. Mephistopheles [18:08] (Alan Shorter)
* Same tracks and personnel as (h).
* Track listing and personnel on the cover is the same as (a-d) (incorrect), but with track times added on the labels.
(j) ESP.DISK/BASE ESPS 1022 (I)
* Same as (i) but with "AGENDA EDIZIONI MUSICALI (P) 1966" on the labels.
(k) ESP.DISK/BASE ESPS 1022 (I)
* Same as (i, j) but different label design.
* Track 2 is printed "Twenty Seven Cooper Square".
(l) ESP/ZYX 1022-2 (D) (CD) [cover]
* Same tracks and personnel as (h).
* Track listing on the cover is the same as (a-d) (incorrect), with track times added.
* Correct listing of personnel on the cover.
(m) ESP-DISK'/Venus TKCZ-79106 (J) (CD) [released 1993] [cover, back cover]
1. Capricorn Moon [22:18] (Marion Brown)
2. 27 Cooper Square [3:45] (Marion Brown)
3. Mephistopheles [18:08] (Alan Shorter)
* Same tracks and personnel as (h).
* Track listings on the disc, back cover and in booklet are the same as (a-d) (incorrect).
* Bennie Maupin is erroneously listed on track 3 on back cover and in booklet.
* Address on disc: ESP-DISK', 290 West End Ave, N.Y., N.Y. 10023.
(n) ESP-DISK'/Abraxas 1022 (I) (CD) [released 2002] [cover]
* Same tracks and personnel as (h).
* Track listing and personnel on the cover is the same as (a-d) (incorrect).
* Track times on the cover differ from (i-k).
(o) ESP/Get Back GET 1051 (I) (180 gram virgin vinyl) [released 2002]
1. Capricorn Moon [22:28] (Marion Brown)
2. 27 Cooper Square [3:49] (Marion Brown)
3. Mephistopheles [18:15] (Alan Shorter)
* Same tracks and personnel as (h).
* Track listing on the cover is the same as (a-d) (incorrect).
* Track times on labels differ from (i-k).
(p) ESP-Disk' ESPCD 1022 (US) (CD) [released 2003] [cover, back cover]
* Same tracks and personnel as (h).
* Track listing on the cover is the same as (a-d) (incorrect).
* Correct listing of personnel on the cover.
* "Marion Brown Quintet" on the back cover.
(q) ESP-Disk' ESP 4011 (US) (CD) [released August 2, 2005] [cover, back cover]
1. Capricorn Moon [23:02] (Marion Brown)
2. 27 Cooper Square [3:53] (Marion Brown)
3. Exhibition [17:59] (Marion Brown)
4. Mephistopheles [18:41] (Alan Shorter)
Marion Brown (as)
Alan Shorter (tp) (tracks 1, 2, 4)
Bennie Maupin (ts) (track 3)
Reggie Johnson (b)
Ronnie Boykins (b) (track 1)
Rashied Ali (dr, perc)
* Exhibition as on (a-g).
* Mephistopheles as on (h).
* "27 Cooper Square" appears on ESP-DISK' Sampler: Vol. I (ESP 1033)
* An excerpt appears on The ESP Sampler (ESP 1051)
Source: KMS, CJ, HM
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Confusing to me--recently bought Marion Brown Quartet on ESP(Thanks Lon--Great!)--I hear no Bennie Maupin.In fact he's not listed on the cover--only in the 'liner notes"...I just listened! Great record though!
The original lp had Maupin on one track, "Exhibition". Most of the early cd reissues, such as the ZYX, substituted a version of Alan Shorter's "Mephistopheles" - the same composition he recorded on Wayne Shorter's "All Seeing Eye" - without documenting this in the liner notes. There is also apparently a Fontana-ESP lp, Fontana ESP-DISK' SFJL.930 (UK), that does the "Mephistopheles" switch. The latest ESP reissue has both tracks.
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I have a tape of the '64 session. I do not believe it is John Gilmore on the version of "Round Midnight". IMO, it is not the same session at all.
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Miles had a Chicago group that may or may not have actually performed earlier in '55 before Trane joined the band. Gilmore and Andrew Hill were members. Wilbur Ware may have been the bass player.
Gilmore and Andrew Hill were members. At the same time???
:blink: Yes. The group was John Gilmore, Andrew Hill, Wilbur Ware, and Phil Thomas on drums.
Remember that the biographical info re: Hill that circulated during the early Blue Note era - his birth date, born in Haiti, "Hille" - is false. Hill is about the same age as Gilmore and was active in Chicago in the 50's.
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Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 20:29:51 -0400
From: "Ed Rhodes, Jr."
Subject: Re: John Gilmore (long)
The Paul Bley record, which is reliably dated to March 1964, makes that clear. Up to that point, Coltrane has no performances comparable to "Ictus", which I would characterize as proto-Aylerish. Prof. Cambell dates a similar solo on "Reflects Motion" to 1962. Therein lies a rub. But either way, Coltrane doesn't attempt to record in that style until "Ascension" (June 1965).
A comment -- I hear Coltrane recording in that style before Ascension, on the sessions that produced "Transition" and the intense untitled tune that appeared Living Space. I haven't listened to Dear Old Stockholm (May 1965) in a while but I seem to recall elements of this Ayler-influenced style on one or two of those performances. And what about "Creation" on the Half Note tapes?
Guy
I'm talking about something a little different from what I hear on "Transition", something a bit more evident in the second take of "Ascension" and decidedly more developed in the little solo fragment at the end of "Afro Blue" on the Seattle date. It's really about moving a little further away from a harmonic or modal structure defined by the composition and improvising a bit more freely simply utilizing scales or whatever it is. It's also about developing a syntax for keeping the solo going when the drummer stops playing in a fixed meter. This latter piece is more evident in the second take of "Ascension" and on "Sun Ship", which was recorded a couple of months later.
But even if I concede your point, we're still talking no earlier than the Spring of '65 and "Ictus" is March '64.
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I don't know how common knowledge it is (it was new to me), but I recently read in Bob Blumenthal's liner notes to 'Round About Midnight that when Miles Davis was putting together his new quintet in 1955, he first tried John Gilmore on a few rehearsals. That didn't work out the way Miles wanted, and Philly Joe then suggested Coltrane, whom Miles hadn't been impressed with before. Jazz history came close to being very different.
This is covered briefly in the Miles autogiobraphy (I don't remember of Chambers or Carr deal with it). It also showed up in a John Gilmore quote but I can't find the specific reference.
Miles had a Chicago group that may or may not have actually performed earlier in '55 before Trane joined the band. Gilmore and Andrew Hill were members. Wilbur Ware may have been the bass player. The drummer's name escapes me.
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Contextualizing Ayler in this historical sequence is a somewhat complicated task as his first appearance on record, while probably not so dramatically "different" as close listening might suggest, is sufficiently radical to denote an evolutionary step a little divergent from the at least intermittently overlapping techniques of Gilmore and Trane.
But, for example, this is only true if "Reflects Motion" turns out NOT to be from 1962. If Campbell's dating proves to be correct then this has to be rethought. If you have not heard "Reflects Motion", consider if the dating of "Ictus" was '62 rather than '64.
Ayler of course came out of the Rollins tradition--but throw in a strong number of X factors (from Don Byas to Bechet, etc.), in addition to what certainly does come across as a sui generis degree of tonal and rhythmic flexibility, and it's a lot more difficult to trace the influence of Trane and/or Gilmore there.I dont' hear the Rollins influence that many folks speak of. Except for a powerful tone, there is little other similarity IMO. OTOH, Ayler is explicity about having listened to Coltrane, though he also insists that he had a "free thing" a couple of years before that first record.
If Ayler's earliest recordings date to '62, and Gilmore's work might still qualify as proto-Ayler in '64 (a scant couple months before the recording of Spiritual Unity, which is more an innovation in ensemble interaction than anything else), and Trane's work didn't really jump off the tonal deep end until somewhere toward '65, then it might even make sense to problematize Ayler as an evolutionary "dark horse" that, somewhere upon his eruption onto the NY scene, catalyzed the development of some of the already motile innovators in the movement.Again, the issue is that we cannot establish that "Ictus" is really where Gilmore was in '64. If "When Angels Speak of Love" was really recorded in '63, you have Gilmore coming on strong with fully developed "Aylerisms", possibly before he could have heard Ayler using them. I still have questions about the '63 date but it certainly raises some critical questions.
Can't really speak to Pharoah, but he's at least conventional enough on his earliest recording to trace him to an axis similar to that Gilmore and Coltrane orbited on.Not really. Pharoah's ESP date is relatively straightforward post-Trane but the Sun Ra recording made a little later in the year reveals a player with a fully developed alternative to Ayler. And the unissued recording with Don Cherry fron January 1964 has Pharoah playing in a manner that sounds like a cross between "Ictus" and what we would later hear from Dewey Redman.
I like the idea of "slippage and play" between the post-bop innovators of the tenor, but I think it's also important to remember that at that time the vocabulary was just coming into its own. I think the issue of "influence" is a lot more complicated for players of the last two or three decades, after ideas got a little more scarce.Perhaps, if complications are simply a matter of the number of people involved. I'm simply saying that, in part because of Gilmore's obscurity, and in part because the "sui generis" bit provides a basis for decontextualizing Ayler, the influences circa 1962-64 have yet to be clearly delineated.
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I think he [Ayler] was sui generis. It's like an eruption of something or other into Jazz. I don't think this fits into any complex intertexual narrative you may make of Jazz, but rather invokes forces that are right on the edge of human expressibility - and, for this reason, have trouble fitting into any text.
Simon Weil
Simon and I share an admiration for Ayler but from almost opposite perspectives. I think it is possible - in fact, necessary - to discuss Ayler from within the jazz tradition in the same way one might discuss Sonny Rollins. And I think it is impossible to explain what happened in jazz after 1964 or thereabouts, particularly with saxophonists, without reference to Ayler, who I think is the most important influence after Trane, both chronologically and substantively. Further, I think that influence plays out like the influence of, say, Dexter Gordon or Ben Webster and it does not lie outside of the boundaries of what we understand to be jazz.
It may be of some interest in this regard to point out that Gilmore and Ayler overlapped in Paul Bley's band in early 1964. Ayler replaced Gilmore and Sunny Murray replace Paul Motion in the band that Bley recorded in March 1964 on a record titled "Turning Point". At some point during the transition, in rehearsals or actual gigs...or both...Ayler and Gilmore played in tandem over a rhythm section of Bley, Gary Peacock and probably Murray. Bley discusses this in his autobiography but there is a somewhat more extensive discussion in the April 1, 1979 issue of Coda (#166). There is also reference to it in the John Gilmore interview in Graham Lock's "Chasin' the Vibration".
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Jim S...thanks again for that heads up on the Miles '67 dvd.
Here's what's slated for the next Jazz Icons series. As of now, release date is September. There could be some changes in this...some of the licensing is still being worked on. Also, note the bonus disk at the end. You have to buy the box to get it.
JAZZ ICONS: SARAH VAUGHAN LIVE IN 58 & 64 (64 Minutes)
Sweden 9/7/58
Sometimes I'm
Happy
Lover
Man
September In The
Rain
Mean To
Me
Tenderly
If This Isn't
Love
Personnel
Sarah Vaughan (Vocal)
Fwd Jazz Icons Seven Titles Ar.ems
Richard Davis (Bass)
Ronnell Bright (Piano)
Art Morgan (Drums)
Holland 6/7/58
Over The Rainbow
They All
Laughed
Lover
Man
Cherokee
Sometimes Im Happy
Personnel
Sarah Vaughan (Vocal)
Richard Davis (Bass)
Ronnell Bright (Piano)
Art Morgan (Drums)
Sweden 10/1/64
I Feel
Pretty
The More I See
You
Baubles, Bangles And
Beads
I Got
Rhythm
Misty
Honeysuckle
Rose
Maria
Won't You Come Home Bill
Bailey
Personnel
Sarah Vaughan (Vocal)
Buster Williams (Bass)
Kirk Stuart (Piano)
George Hughes (Drums)
JAZZ ICONS: CHARLES MINGUS LIVE IN 64 (90 Minutes)
Norway 4/12/64
So Long
Eric
Orange Was The Color Of Her Dress, Then Blue Silk
Ow!
They Cant Take That Away From Me
If I Should Lose
You
Buzzy
Take The A Train
Personnel
Charles Mingus Bass
Eric Dolphy - Alto Sax, Flute, Bass Clarinet
Clifford Jordan Tenorsax
Johnny Coles Trumpet
Jaki Byard Piano
Dannie Richmond- Drums
Belgium 4/19/64
So Long
Eric
Peggy's Blue
Skylight
Meditations On Integration
Personnel
Charles Mingus Bass
Eric Dolphy - Alto Sax, Flute, Bass Clarinet
Clifford Jordan Tenorsax
Jaki Byard Piano
Dannie Richmond- Drums
JAZZ ICONS: JOHN COLTRANE LIVE IN 60, 61 & 65 (90 Minutes)
Germany 3/28/60
Autumn Leaves
Whats
New
Autumn In
NY
Hackensack
On Green Dolphin Street
Walkin
The
Theme
Personnel
John Coltrane (Tenor Sax)
Wynton Kelly (Piano)
Paul Chambers (Bass)
Jimmy Cobb (Drums)
Additional Personnel
on Hackensack
Oscar Peterson - Piano
on Moonlight In Vermont and Hackensack
Stan Getz Tenor Sax
Germany 11/24/61
My Favorite
Things
Ev'rytime We Say Goodbye
Impressions
Personnel
John Coltrane (Tenor and Soprano Sax)
Eric Dolphy (Alto Sax and Flute)
McCoy Tyner (Piano)
Reggie Workman (Bass)
Elvin Jones (Drums)
Belgium 8/1/65
Vigil
Naima
My Favorite
Things
Personnel
John Coltrane (Tenor Sax and Soprano Sax)
McCoy Tyner (Piano)
Jimmy Garrison (Bass)
Elvin Jones (Drums)
JAZZ ICONS: WES MONTGOMERY LIVE IN 65 (78 Minutes)
Holland 4/2/65
I Love
Blues
Nicas
Dream
The End Of A Love Affair
Personnel
Wes Montgomery (Guitar)
Pim Jacobs (Piano)
Ruud Jacobs (Bass)
Han Bennink (Drums)
Belgium 4/4/65
Impressions
Twisted
Blues
Here's That Rainy Day
Jingles
The Girl Next Door
Personnel
Wes Montgomery (Guitar)
Arthur Harper (Bass)
Harold Mabern (Piano)
Jimmy Lovelace (Drums)
England 5/7/65
Four On
Six
Full
House
Here's That Rainy Day
Twisted
Blues
West Coast Blues
Personnel
Wes Montgomery (Guitar)
Rick Laird (Bass)
Stan Tracey (Piano)
Jackie Dougan (Drums)
JAZZ ICONS: DEXTER GORDON LIVE IN 63 & 64 (69 Minutes)
Holland 7/29/64
A Night In Tunisia
Whats
New
Blues Walk
Personnel
Dexter Gordon (Tenor Sax)
George Gruntz (Piano)
Guy Pedersen (Bass)
Daniel Humair (Drums)
Switzerland 11/17/63
Second Balcony
Jump
Youve Changed
Personnel
Dexter Gordon (Tenor Sax)
Kenny Drew Piano
Gilbert "Bibi" Rovere - Bass
Art Taylor- Drums
Belgium 1/8/64
Lady
Bird
Body And Soul
Personnel
Dexter Gordon (Tenor Sax)
George Gruntz (Piano)
Guy Pedersen (Bass)
Daniel Humair (Drums)
JAZZ ICONS: DAVE BRUBECK LIVE IN 64 & 66 (67 Minutes)
Belgium 10/10/64
St. Louis
Blues
Koto
Song
Three To Get
Ready
In Your Own Sweet
Way
Take
Five
Personnel
Dave Brubeck Piano
Paul Desmond - Alto Sax
Eugene Wright Bass
Joe Morello- Drums
Germany 11/6/66
Take The A
Train
40
Days
I'm In A Dancing
Mood
Koto
Song
Take
Five
Personnel
Dave Brubeck Piano
Paul Desmond - Alto Sax
Eugene Wright Bass
Joe Morello- Drums
JAZZ ICONS: DUKE ELLINGTON LIVE IN 58 (65 Minutes)
Holland 11/2/58
Black And Tan
Fantasy
Creole Love
Call
The
Mooch
My Funny
Valentine
Kinda
Dukish
Rockin' In
Rhythm
Mr. Gentle And Mr.
Cool
All Of
Me
Things Ain't What They Used To
Be
Hi-Fi-Fo-Fum
Sophisticated
Lady
Don't Get Around Much
Anymore
Do Nothing Til You Hear From
Me
Don't You Know I
Care
In A Sentimental
Mood
Mood
Indigo
I'm Beginning To See The
Light
CaraFwd Jazz Icons Seven Titles Ar.ems van
I Got It Bad And That Ain't
Good
It Don't Mean A Thing (If It Ain't Got That Swing)
Solitude
I Let A Song Go Out Of My
Heart
Don't Get Around Much
Anymore
Diminuendo In Blue And Crescendo In
Blue
Personnel
Reeds:
Johnny Hodges (alto sax)
Russell Procope (alto sax, clarinet)
Paul Gonsalves (tenor sax)
Jimmy Hamilton (tenor sax, clarinet)
Harry Carney (baritone sax, clarinet, bass clarinet)
Trumpets:
Cat Anderson
Harold "Shorty" Baker
Ray Nance (trumpet, violin, vocal)
Clark Terry
Trombones:
Quentin Jackson
John Sanders (valve trombone)
Britt Woodman
rhythm section
Duke Ellington (piano)
Jimmy Woode (bass)
Sam Woodyard (drums)
Ozzie Bailey (vocal)
JAZZ ICONS BOX SET (Bonus Disc)
JOHN COLTRANE
Sweden 11/30/62
I Want To Talk About You
DEXTER GORDON
Norway 1964
I Want
More
DAVE BRUBECK
Finland 5/18/65
Unisphere
SARAH VAUGHAN
Sweden 10/30/67
The Shadow Of Your Smile
What Now My Love
I Had A
Ball
DIZZY GILLESPIE
Interview 1970
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I'll wager $150 that Ed Rhodes will cop this book. And when he does, I hope he writes a review, considering how erudite and knowledgable he is concerning all things Trane.
I will definitely cop. Don't know about the review. I will get it because it's Trane and because I unabashedly admire and support the work Chris DeVito has done. He's been revising...in some cases virtually rewriting...the chronology from Porter's bio since 2001. Anyone who has seen the work he posted on the Coltrane-l listserv knows that neither Porter or Fujioka has been the definitive disco/chrono work on Trane for several years now.
There will numerous changes to the chronology and many additions and revisions to the discography. This is where I live and it's enough for me.
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There's little doubt that it's Trane. Peter Losin's listing reflects what has been in variou discographies since Porter referenced it in the chronology in his Trane bio. The only real question is the date. The chronology in the new disco will reflect that Trane toured California with Dizzy's small group in the Fall of 1950. Some of the material that Chris DeVito published on the Coltrane listserv several years back shows dates in San Francisco and Los Angeles from late September through the end of October. Speculation is that Trane did the Billy Valentine dates during that time. I believe Schaap's comments on this were made during the big WKCR Trane marathon a couple of years back.
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From here I get five sessions by Cherry led groups at the Monmartre from probably late 1965 through March 1966. There was a two disk set on Magnetic - Don Cherry Live at "The Monmartre", vols. I and II, Magnetic MRCD 111 and 112 - that is now out of print. According to here the Magnetics are from the March 17 and 31, 1966 sets. Romano and Berger are on 4 out of 5.
Pharoah recorded with Cherry in 1964 and 1966. The one live NYC gig I know of was in '66 with the "Symphony for Improvisers" band.
Berger's ESP sounds a lot like "Symphony..." except with a quartet. Carlos Ward plays alto. Blackwell and Grimes are the rhythm section. The pieces are similar to "Symphony..." and run together like a medley the way Cherry's Blue Notes do.
The Berger commentary is...interesting. I only know him from this mid-late 60's material. I thought his vibes fit pretty well. His piano...I thought Cherry used it well on the B side of "Symphony...".
It will be even more...interesting...if the ESP's are not reissues of the Magnetics.
Cecil question
in Discography
Posted
I have a copy of a flyer distributed at a March 7, 1965 concert by the Unit at Town Hall. At the bottom of the last page is an ad for "Cathedrale" (spelled with the final "e"). They were asking $5 for it and you could send the check to 60 Second Avenue, N.Y.C. 10003. "N.Y.C. residents must include $.20 N.Y.C. sales tax."
I made some inquiries about this on the CT Research list but no one had heard of it. A few folks said they would ask Cecil but no one has revived the thread.