Scott Dolan

Perhaps. I had no idea there was that big of a cultural divide. Though in fairness, there are still plenty of neanderthals here in American that think the way Steve does.

I'm not sure how to respond to someone who thinks David S. Ware, for example, sounds nothing like 60's Free Jazz. That's a mind-boggling statement. Personally, I've shifted over to the European-style Free Improvisation BECAUSE I had grown tired of hearing the same old thing. Ware is great, but I wanted to find something new.

Succinct!

Brotzmann, Gayle, Mateen, for example? Not that I have anything against any of those three. Just saying. Though, I thought Dimitry was talking more about the Euro Free Improv guys.

Good stuff, Larry. You really underscore something I was saying earlier. Will The Sun Come Out? Brother, I couldn't have even told you that was a song from Blood On The Fields. While songs like Calling Out The Indians, You Don't Hear No Drums, Blood On The Fields, and God Don't Like Ugly are all quite good, IMO, they're so buried in the muck and tedium that they simply get lost. My son's named Wynton Coltrane, though not because Wynton is my favorite artist. I actually wanted to name him Thelonious Coltrane. But the wife wasn't having it. So we were preparing Thanksgiving dinner for us and a few of our elderly neighbors and I loaded up some fairly tame background music in the ol' 5 disc CD carousel changer (remember those?!), and one was a Wynton Marsalis album (Midnight Blues, IIRC, which opens with what I think is an outstanding version of The Party's Over, but drops over a cliff after that). So the wife suddenly blurts out, "let's name him Wynton. That's a cool name." I tell you this story because it just struck me that that really sums up Wynton quite a bit. Harmless background music, with the occasional flourish. I have 34 discs of Wynton's music. But if I broke them down, I could probably produce about 8 really great discs (V.V. box, and Black Codes) and then maybe 3 decent compilation discs. So yeah, less than a third of his output that I own. Editing, man... Though I'm still befuddled by Jim paying lip service to In The House Of Tribes, of all albums. Not that it isn't good, because it is. But because of his live albums, I'd rank it the lowest. Excellent playing, but the friends and sycophants that made up the "audience" that night do get rather tiresome after the first few tunes.

Of course not. But, where you draw the line, and where polite adults draw the line are at odds. And the more you insist on chipping away at polite social norms, the more you're endorsing someone else to take it just a little further. And a little further. Yes, sometimes slippery slopes ARE a thing.

My guess here is that none of the "fuck you, it was meant as a compliment!" contingent here have never felt one second of fear or intimidation at the mere presence of the opposite sex.

Steve, how old are you?

Yep, and Crouch mentioned Black, Brown, & Biege several times in the liner notes for the THREE disc Blood On The Fields. Some dots put themselves together.

Then answer my previous question. And if you can somehow muster the strength to do that, then perhaps you could also answer when you felt compelled to tell a male co-worker that HE "looked elegant tonight". You can try your feeble best to turn this back on me, but your knuckles are dragging, and don't think I'm the only one who can see that. Here's the question, once more. Try not to sidestep it this time.

And that's one of my only issues with his material. Once the long-form "hey look at me, I'm the DUKE!" material kicked in full-force, so did his musical long-windedness. The biggest problem being that amongst those long and meandering pieces lie some truly great tunes. But they get so lost in the denseness of the overall pieces that they're woefully lost art. In This House, On This Morning, Citi Movement, and Blood On The Fields all have astonishing moments hidden within their deeply-in-need-of-an-editor length. I almost think that had he had even the slightest conception of brevity, many would judge his Duke-esque pieces differently. Unfortunately, what history leaves us with is moments of greatness obscured by interminable stretches of tedium.

It's not icy at all. That's just a false narrative you are cooking up to deflect from your desire to retain your dominant right to do and say anything YOU deem appropriate. I have personal conversations daily with many of my fellow employees, both male and female. See, adults can actually do that without hitting on the opposite sex, out of respect. Adults also realize that umwanted advances in the workplace are just that: unwanted. Need I copy and paste a definition of that for you? But, I at least take comfort in the fact that your bullshit apologetics have left you painted so tightly into a corner that now you have to shift the conversation into "nothing so much as a single word on a personal level". Misdirection much?

I also find it quite telling that I asked both you and Dimitry some pretty simple questions to consider, yet neither of you chose to answer them. If you need the reason why explained to you later, please let me know.

I'm sorry, please show me where I said I'd be offended by any of that. While you're looking, I'll try to fill in the clueless. It's been very cute watching you and Steve simply dismiss any sense of moral outrage that neither of you happen to share while perched atop the dominant throne of being a white male. Because, hey man, lighten up, right? I mean, you've never been in a position of being "the weaker sex". Neither of you are in the sex that is historically in the overwhelming majority of sexual assault victims. Neither of you are of the sex or race that has been oppressed, harassed, or demeaned by a dominant sex or race. So why is everyone else so uptight?! Right? I mean, how bad could it be. *sly grin* Hey, babe. I'm just playing around. *wink wink* C'mon, why are you getting upset? *wink & smile* Sorry Steve, but if you think being polite and respectful towards others in the workplace is puritanical, than you have some astounding personal issues. In a professional environment, stop me if you've heard this one already, you act FUCKING PROFESSIONAL! Maybe your three decades away from workplace informs your "Mad Men was a raging comedy" outlook on things of this nature, but I'd encourage you to grow up and join the 21st century. Now, if you have female friends, minority friends, whatever, and you all have that understanding of each other to make otherwise inappropriate remarks/jokes, then by all means, have at it. That's what friends are for, IMO. But if you think the only way to have fun in a professional environment is exercising your "right" to "chat up the dames/broads/skirts/bitches" (or whatever your sorry old ass uses as a "term of endearment), then fuck off. Because you're the kind of apologist that allows cats like Weinstein to flourish, and has those he sexually assaulted live in fear of telling their story to the authorities.

So what?! Within the Jazz genre, everybody now sounds like someone that came before. So nobody can simply have their own voice, right?

I find it incredibly interesting that while you openly admit that you've not been in a true office setting in nearly three decades, that you still feel as though you are authoritative enough to make statements like, "happens everyday". As someone who currently works in TWO offices I can say, without qualification, that you are completely wrong. No, this does NOT happen everyday because the culture here has changed dramatically. Now, perhaps you and your fellow German men haven't evolved beyond the frat house mentality if early adulthood, but things are much different here. Read what Moosely said once more. THAT is what has become the dominant culture in the U.S. these days. What if you did?

I guess I had the benefit of discovering him well after the initial hype, and subsequent disappointment. So I have a more "this is well done, and I can appreciate it in its own level" thing when it comes to his music. But, I CAN see how following his career in real time would have introduced a problematic angle. Hell, I didn't even have any idea how much he and Crouch besmirched 60's Avant Garde, and I was heavily INTO 60's Avant Garde when I discovered Marsalis. Though I still have to admit that I couldn't care less. Not being a player in the Jazz world, all the politics and bullshit mean nothing to me.

I still wonder how he'd be judged if he'd never said a single word publicly. Seems to me that he's so weighed down by his well-earned karmic luggage that there really is no way to judge his Music in a vacuum.

Steve, when was the last time you told a male co-worker how nice he looked? Did you use words like "beautiful", "cute", or "amazing"?

Interesting choice. While a very good date, I put that one behind Live At Blues Alley, and WAY behind the Village Vanguard box set. Now, I like a lot of his material, yet admit that he's also released a lot of duds. That said, if one only hears Black Codes (From The Undergroud), and the Village Vaguard box, I could say you're good as far as Wynton goes.

Wow... Now you're reducing your argument to a rather absurd eqivalency. You may want to stop digging. You're going to drown in the water table if you go much further.

I agree with this sentiment 100%!!! 1000%, even. Lipi seems to be the only one here that is truly getting it.

So are all artists that play Bebop simply imitators or museum curators? How about those who still play 60's-style Free Jazz? Just wondering, because I never hear them disparaged similarly.

No, but Al Davis was the ringleader, from what I've read. A serious thirn in Rozelle's side. It's actually quite sad to see what folks like Davis, Rozelle, Hunt, etc. built now being completely torn down by Goodell. Rozelle was vilified in his time, yet Tagliabue caused everyone to reassess. Tagliabue was vilified in his time, but Goodell caused everyone... Rinse and repeat...

Yeah, I have read a lot about how instrumental (by way of being a complete pain in the ass) Al Davis was in the merger itself. Man older buddy of mine has long held that the AFL was some of the most entertaining football he's ever seen.