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john surman question...

Guest donald petersen

By Guest donald petersen
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Guest akanalog

Guest akanalog

Posted
Posted

how come on surman's "john surman" album he plays all that island music? was that an interest of his that quickly faded? it seems weird and unrepresentative of him. was it the label's idea to sort of take the sonny rollins island music thing another step? i like this surman album but it is sort of weird. was surman a big rollins fan or something?

clifford_thornton Veteran

clifford_thornton

Posted
Posted (edited)

I think the record label pushed him in that direction, frankly (goofy calypsos were popular in England around '68). The side-long suite is where he would have preferred to go, and where he went entirely on his second LP.

Still, that side two is a motherfucker...

Edited by clifford_thornton
sidewinder Mentor

sidewinder

Posted
Posted

Yes, that side one is heavily influenced by the sort of stuff that Lord Kitchener was putting out at the time and which developed into Ska music. Very popular in and around London.

It's interesting how many of the UK players of the time included calypso type tunes in their recordings. Ian Hamer includes one on the first live session in the recent 'Acropolis' release on Jasmine.

I wonder though if there was also a Rollins connection? I've heard Surman refer to meeting with Sonny and sitting in with him at Scott's 'Old Place' shortly after he arrived in London so this is a definite possibility.

Guest akanalog

Guest akanalog

Posted
Posted

i have the crappy universal reissue with no notes but aren't mike osborne and harry miller on this? it's funny the three of them playing these silly calypso tunes.

clifford_thornton Veteran

clifford_thornton

Posted
Posted

Yeah, and IIRC Alan Jackson is the drummer, can't recall the pianist. I want to say Roy Fry, but I know that's not it.

There was a record on Decca Eclipse called "Jazz In Britain '68-'69" that had more of this Calypso stuff, and the band slays - Surman, Osborne, Jackson, Miller, Oxley, Skidmore, John Taylor, Malcolm Griffiths and Harry Beckett, among others. Unfortunately, the tunes themselves do not slay at all.

Interesting thought on the Rollins/"St. Thomas" connection, though. Food for the next time I listen to these.

Guest akanalog

Guest akanalog

Posted
Posted

one of the tunes on this album is a rollins tune.

also i don't think it is alan jackson. i think the rhythm section sans miller are calypso people. no namses i recognized.

clifford_thornton Veteran

clifford_thornton

Posted
Posted

Alan Jackson is on side two only, I guess... Stirling Betancourt is the drummer on the first half, and Errol Phillip plays conga. My bad! That's what I get for almost never listening to the calypso stuff, but your thread got me jamming it tonight and it's a lot better than I remembered.

  • 5 years later...
jeffcrom Newbie

jeffcrom

Posted
Posted

Me too. I wish I could just delete my retarded earlier posts.

No, no, no! It's interesting to see where you were at another point in your life.

I love this album, too. I've been exploring calypso lately, and just recently realized that the first two tunes, "Obeah Wedding" and "My Pussin," were very popular Trinidadian tunes by The Mighty Sparrow and Lord Kitchener, respectively. The lyrics of "Obeah Wedding" are really strange, and "My Pussin's" lyrics are as double-entendre as you might expect. And for what it's worth, "Don't Stop the Carnival" wasn't written by Sonny Rollins - the earliest recording I have of it is from 1946.

It's too late now, but I'm definitely going to play this album tomorrow.

sidewinder Mentor

sidewinder

Posted
Posted

No suprise that Surman recorded this West Indian-style material. Lots of musical activity around Notting Hill back then (not the Cameronian millionaire's area that it morphed into in the 90s - bed-sit land back then), exposure to the lively Caribbean musics played there and I think John Surman's old mate Mike Westbrook resided in the area back then too, not to mention Joe Harriott and others.

Jazzjet Newbie

Jazzjet

Posted
Posted

Yeah, and IIRC Alan Jackson is the drummer, can't recall the pianist. I want to say Roy Fry, but I know that's not it.

There was a record on Decca Eclipse called "Jazz In Britain '68-'69" that had more of this Calypso stuff, and the band slays - Surman, Osborne, Jackson, Miller, Oxley, Skidmore, John Taylor, Malcolm Griffiths and Harry Beckett, among others. Unfortunately, the tunes themselves do not slay at all.

Interesting thought on the Rollins/"St. Thomas" connection, though. Food for the next time I listen to these.

Russell Henderson was on piano, also from the Caribbean I believe.

Jazzjet Newbie

Jazzjet

Posted
Posted

Right, that is correct. It's funny, in the ensuing years I bought all those "London is the Place For Me" calypso comps - this stuff is excellent!

It is interesting that Surman never really followed up with the Caribbean theme. My guess is that Ronnie Scott's Old Place - which encouraged young musicians like Surman - probably featured Caribbean flavoured jazz alongside the South African musicians in the Chris McGregor group, and that the selections on the album mirrored that.

And, yes, those 'London Is The Place for Me' comps are great. We have to thank Damon Albarn for those as he part-owns the Honest Jon operation which released them.

RogerF Rookie

RogerF

Posted
Posted (edited)

Yeah, and IIRC Alan Jackson is the drummer, can't recall the pianist. I want to say Roy Fry, but I know that's not it.

There was a record on Decca Eclipse called "Jazz In Britain '68-'69" that had more of this Calypso stuff, and the band slays - Surman, Osborne, Jackson, Miller, Oxley, Skidmore, John Taylor, Malcolm Griffiths and Harry Beckett, among others. Unfortunately, the tunes themselves do not slay at all.

Interesting thought on the Rollins/"St. Thomas" connection, though. Food for the next time I listen to these.

No, Jazz in Britain 68-69 didn't have any calypsos on it. Did have all original material including Surman's superb and memorable 'Winter Song', also covered by the Clarke Boland Big Band. Jazz in Britain (reissued on CD on Vocalion) is an excellent album and a must for any Brit jazz fans.

John-Surman-Jazz-In-Britain-6-416486.jpg

Edited by RogerF
RogerF Rookie

RogerF

Posted
Posted (edited)

Yeah, I know that now... beautiful LP.

Like I said before, if only I had a mind to delete all the posts where I had no idea what I was talking about...

Clifford - no sweat - I believe you mainly DO know what you're talking about, and you talk a lot of sense. Just wanted to highlight Jazz in Britain as a great album which was for so long MIA. There are a few others in that ilk which are just brilliant and the one which comes to mind most readily and which was I believe recorded at the same time - possibly the same session - as Jazz in Britain was Alan Skidmore's 'TCB' which IMHO must rank as one fo the top 50 Brit jazz albums ever. Strangely, only Universal in Japan has so far seen fit to reissue it. 'TCB' is one of those albums which for me begs the question 'how did they do that?'. Stellar!

tcb.jpg

Edited by RogerF
RogerF Rookie

RogerF

Posted
Posted (edited)

Yeah, always looked neural to me. Again: great record.

Yeh Clifford's correct I think, but it always makes me want a Margherita from Pizza Express!

ps should have mentioned earlier, Surman and Osborne are guests on this album.

Edited by RogerF

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