Buying Nels Cline CD -

[AllenLowe]

well, I caught a lot of flack in a recent thread for daring to say I didn't like Cline, based on 4 hours of awful "live" performance - since that wasn't enough for you guys, I've just ordered his Inter Stellar Space CD off of Amazon. Call me a masochist - I promise, even if I hate it, to tie myself to a chair and put the CD player on "repeat play" for 3 days or until I die - whichever comes first -

[nathan]

Hope you like it, and don't feel tortured! Of course, based on as many of the flames as I had the patience to read, I think people who flayed you did it because you said he was "bullshitting" and you could tell, not because you didn't like him. Regardless, if you survive, and feel like checking out another one, I would recommend The Inkling as a great place to start. It's a beautiful record, and even if one doesn't like it, it's certainly not filled with "fashionable noise" or bullshit.

Enjoy.

nathan

[AllenLowe]

well, talk to my widow - and I do wonder, did Cline PAY Julius to appear?

[nathan]

Actually, it was a Julius session. Julius paid Nels.

[md655321]

A free way to check him out is to sign up for emusic.com free trial. They have several good Nels Cline discs, and you get 50 free mp3s. Its an excellent service.

I would try Intrumentals by the Nels Cline Singers or Interstellar Space by Nels Cline and Gregg Bendian.

[RDK]

Thanks for reminding me that i have to check out Nels and Alex's 50th b-day bash...

http://www.cryptonight.com/

[nathan]

Since you mentioned Cryptonight, I have to jump in and give a plug to the appearances by Bay Area clarinet master Ben Goldberg (January 12) and young bassist/composer extraordinaire Todd Sickafoose's Quintet (January 19th). Both bands will presumably include the incredible drummer Ches Smith (unless Ben's playing solo).

[AllenLowe]

say hello to Ben - he recorded with me on my Enja CD - great player -

[.:.impossible]

Yeah, I was the one that challenged the "bullshitter" label. I just don't understand that whole line of thought, Cline or not. Who do you think these people are trying to fool? What is their motive? The kind of music we are talking about here doesn't exactly appeal to the masses, and it doesn't exactly pull in the big bucks either. I just can't figure out what people are referring to when they call phony on someone.

I'm not trying to hijack a thread here, but I am interested in hearing some people's thoughts on this.

:::: :: :::: :: :::: ::

I have to thank Nathan for turning me on to REQUIEM FOR JACK KIRBY. I love to listen to vibes recordings, and I am still amazed at Bendian's playing, not to mention the way they approach this music. I still haven't bought Interstellar, but I'm looking forward to the Andrew Hill music.

[nathan]

Allen, that's cool that Ben's on your disc. Ben's just an amazing player and teacher and a fascinating guy. (For what it's worth, I'd sat he is a Cline fan and they're pretty frequent collaborators these days.) For a healthy dose of Ben's recent playing with another great guitarist, I'd highly recommend picking up the new disc by Bay Area guitarist/composer John Schott (Ben's longtime collaborator in bands like Junk Genius, Snorkel, and a billion other projects). It's a self-titled album by John's Typical Orchestra:

http://www.johnschott.com/jsto.html

Amazing stuff, with the best of the Bay Area scene (Ches Smith, Devin Hoff, Jon Raskin, Carla Kihlstedt, etc). Ben's on every track save one. It's a great, rollicking record with gorgeous writing and playing. (Oh, and impossible, Ches plays a little bit of vibraphone on a couple tracks.) Sorry to go off topic!

Hey again, impossible! (Glad you're still digging the Bendian!) Yeah, it's puzzling, the "bullshitting" thing. Whether one is a musician or not, that assessment remains largely subjective. Not to mention fairly unspecific. At any rate, in the case of Cline, I can certainly attest that if the motivation for "bullshitting" is financial success, Nels wasn't bullshitting very successfully at all before the Wilco gig fell into his lap!

nathan

Edited December 15, 2005 by nathan

[AllenLowe]

I'll report back after Interstellar - but let me point out that "bullshit" does not necessarily have to track with commerical/financial success - in the case of the live performances I heard with Clines, I felt he was playing bad music - it doesn't matter what his motivation was. I mean, Kenny G is completely sincere, so you can see my point (and no, I'm not comparing the two) - I think that like a lot of post-modernist "free" players" Cline has gotten caught up in what I call the new formalism, a personal belief that his discovery of a particular form of sonics/imrpovisation is enough to carry him through artistically. Just dealing with a problem of musical form does not mean one has solved the problem - I just did not find his playing compelling, and I thought he was caught up in this formalist bullshit - hence my comment -

[nathan]

I understand what you're saying, Allen. I just think, intended or not, the term "bullshitting" gives the impression that you're suggesting the artist is trying to put one over on the audience and has a conscious, non-artistic motivation at work. I acknowledge that you may not have meant it that way, but I suspect that's how most would read it. Anyway, as for the specific aspects of the performances that you didn't enjoy, I guess I'd just add that Nels has got a lot more in his bag than even just free playing. That's one of the reasons I recommended both his album The Inkling and the Bendian disc Impossible mentioned. Obviously, it's a matter of taste to some degree, but I've heard him play everything from solo free improv to Monk's tunes with top-shelf jazz players convincingly. He's more well-rounded than one might suspect. Of course, that doesn't mean he might not still suck, in your opinion! But he's a legit player.

nathan

[nathan]

P.S. - i would also, of course, recommend the 2 Nels Cline Singers releases, with Bay Area guys Devin Hoff & Scott Amendola. Tuneful and varied.

[Adam]

I'll report back after Interstellar - but let me point out that "bullshit" does not necessarily have to track with commerical/financial success - in the case of the live performances I heard with Clines, I felt he was playing bad music - it doesn't matter what his motivation was. I mean, Kenny G is completely sincere, so you can see my point (and no, I'm not comparing the two) - I think that like a lot of post-modernist "free" players" Cline has gotten caught up in what I call the new formalism, a personal belief that his discovery of a particular form of sonics/imrpovisation is enough to carry him through artistically. Just dealing with a problem of musical form does not mean one has solved the problem - I just did not find his playing compelling, and I thought he was caught up in this formalist bullshit - hence my comment -

Interesting. I've seen Nels multiple times, and never perceived him in that fashion, well, except for the last show, where he, Gauthier, and Wickam were accompanying a painter at Club Tropical.

But for example, I saw Thurston Moore with Nels and others at All Tomorrow's Parties at UCLA a couple of years ago. To me, Moore was "bullshittin'" (in Allan's terms), just playing skronky and loud for the hell of it. Cline was clearly more musical, more compelling, and better at actually listening to his bandmates for that performance.

And the live perfomrance of Cline & Bendian performing "Interstellar Space" was just fantastic.

[Peter]

I've not noticed any discussion on Cline joining Jeff Tweedy's "rock" band, Wilco. Cline appears on their new release "kicking Television Live in Chicago". I like this recording, but Cline's solos could be better integrated w/ the band. The songs are fairly conventionally structured for the most part and then Cline goes wild. Kind of reminds me of hearing Sun Ra playing a song fairly straight and then Marshall Allen taking a solo and energy blowing for all he's worth. I prefer some kind of build-up or transition, FWIW.

[md655321]

Do you have A Ghost is Born? That record was done before Nels joined the band, and at several spots it goes to pure guitar freak out a la Neil Young, but played by Tweedy. Im pretty sure what Nels des is not simply him diverging from the song, but actually what Tweedy had in mind. Personally, I love Nels' sound in the band.

[AllenLowe]

well, let me put it in simpler terms that Clementine might understand: formalism as a term is not an invention of Stalin, though exploited by him to persecute artists (and used by other authoritarian regimes as a means to deprecate new art) - the term, however, has independent meaning; much as "avant garde" does not merely reflect Stanley Crouch's contempt for same, "formalism" has real and precise meaning in the critical and musical world. I have seen it used, for example, to describe Stanley Kubrick, whose long and sad artistic decline reflected his belief that his skill at manipulating film was enough to justify virtually anything that he did with the form. Same with a lot of contemporary musicians, who seem to think that mere experimentation with form is enough to justify any music thus produced (especially when accompanied by a good philosophic rationale). I have a problem with this.

Edited December 16, 2005 by AllenLowe

[Steve Reynolds]

from someone who has only a cursory listening history with Cline - but as one who is a big fan of Wilco...

I love the new live set - whether it is Cline or Tweedy (or both) and whover is playing, I find the forays into sound invigorating and pretty damn well integrated into the band's sound.

as most of you also know, I am a enthusiast for free music, whether it be jazz or other newish elctrical sorts of things - so my two cents on the Wilco thing

for rigidity in listening to creative music is death - some people just want ot judge based on some standards of musicianship which have beenm by now, transcended by new methodologies that in many cases are only marginally connected to tradititional music of any sort.

see Keith Rowe, baby

Newfoundland, baby

[.:.impossible]

Do you have A Ghost is Born? That record was done before Nels joined the band, and at several spots it goes to pure guitar freak out a la Neil Young, but played by Tweedy. Im pretty sure what Nels des is not simply him diverging from the song, but actually what Tweedy had in mind. Personally, I love Nels' sound in the band.

Yeah, most of the time, it is two and three guitars doing all of that. Cline is an interesting addition to that band, considering its, and his, past. He can add a real edge to the music that Tweedy seems to have decided to amplify over the past few years. The funny thing is, now all of my friends know who Nels Cline is!

::

Allan, the reason I wanted you to talk further about the "bullshit" term was for the very reason that Nathan points out. You saw Nels play for four hours, but it wasn't his main stem! That is why I told you it was not enough to judge the man, much less call "bullshit".

I hope you enjoy Interstellar. If not, I don't own that yet, and would also be happy to take it off your hands!

[Steve Reynolds]

<Same with a lot of contemporary musicians, who seem to think that mere experimentation with form is enough to justify any music thus produced (especially when accompanied by a good philosophic rationale)>

First off: which contemporary musicians?

Apparently Cline is one of them

I already know what you think of David Murray – but he’s only been around for 30 years – so for many of us, he’s almost an elder – that you don’t like how he plays – and others don’t – I have never had a problem with that – there is room for the *great* Warne Marsh and Murray. Thye ain’t playin’ the tunes the same way – but who says they intend to?

I suppose Peter Brotzmann has been a fraud for almost 40 years – then again, I might be assuming something – that you ever took anything about him serious enough to ever listen to him – maybe you might want to just admit that you aren’t interested in that sort of thing – but then again, I’m sure you’ve never heard the mighty Tentet – a lot stuff goin’ on with that crew – and none of it has anything to do with jivin’ – even from a “formalist’ point of view.

See the big unit that Peter has been involved with for almost the past 10 years is one those bands that plays music that has no categorization. What can happen in that band puts holes in what the naysayers say about “out” music that they can’t get with – fact is, if one can get past a bit of skronk and holler – and a little energy (well – actually the energy and power that can be generated is like nothing in the musical world) and some of us welcome a little bit of wailing – didn’t Bird wail?

But the structure and execution of their music – and in this case, it isn’t free music – or wasn’t when I saw them – it is compositional music with something else – guys who can play it – and guys who can also play beyond the norm. Seems to me that for virtually forever in the jazz world, there are many who do not want ot recognize the guys who have go somewhere else – the assumption has always been that they had no choice – that they couldn’t hang with the real dudes

Biggest lie in jazz – always has been – it’s better for most who open up – but for some – it continues to give lie to the fact that the greatest jazz is way behind us

Listen to the now – still may be the future

And actually it is band that takes all pre-conceived and cemented ideas and opinions away from the ‘formalists’

When I saw them live the last time, it was the greatest performance of any band, any band that I had even seen – from even the level of pure execution and that means in a traditional way – every player was on – and they did 2 40 minute sets – pure, clear – nothing filled in, pure sonic genius

Trees Have Roots in the Earth

[AllenLowe]

well, there's a lot to what you say - however: "some people just want to judge based on some standards of musicianship which have been by now, transcended by new methodologies"

well, these "new" methodologies are about 80 years old by now; check out Debussy's Etude for 8 Fingers; Ruth Crawford Seeger, etc etc.; in jazz these methodologies are 50 years old. As for myself, I have played and recorded this kind of music with people like Roswell Rudd and Julius Hemphill, so I am not unsympathetic to it or unknowledgeable about it. I do feel that the basic concepts of free jazz, like those of bebop, have run their course and I look for new ways to channel those concepts - what I see today are a lot of good musicians with strong theoretical ideas about the music, but lost in a new set of cliches - as a matter of fact, when you think about it, free jazz has had more time to gestate than bebop ever did - so it's time for something else, from my perspective.

I myself am working on some new ideas, and currently have a recording project with Marc Ribot, Randy Sandke and Ursula Oppens, so I am trying to put my theories into practice, Clementine notwithstanding.

I also do not care if these players can "hang with the real dudes" - I don't believe an artist has to create in traditional forms before he can do something new. What he does is good or it isn't - no need to prove anything else.

Cline may well be capable of taking it in an interesting direction. I initially gave him 4 solid hours of solo playing, which, believe me, is plenty of time for an improvisor. I will wait and see - right now it's in Amazon's hands -

Edited December 16, 2005 by AllenLowe

[Steve Reynolds]

thanks for the post, Allen

but the "methodologies" that I am pointing to are not the ones that you are referencing, I don't think

really two strains of new improvised music:

the first - an older form - has basis in the free jazz tradition - that is the first generation of european free improvisors - guys like John Stevens, Derek Bailey, Peter Brotzmann, Evan Parker, Barry Guy, Paul Rutherford, Alexander von Schlippenbach, Paul Lovens, etc.

some of these musicians speak in a language that is or is close to jazz - some of them do sometimes - some of them veer off into musical language that is really not that much about the notes - and that has much less to do about scales and notes than even the most "out" 1960's free jazz stuff

the seond is the world of what is sometimes known as "eai" or "electo-acoustic improvisation" - with Keith Rowe and AMM being seen by many as the progenitors of this sort of thing - major practitioners of this music are people like Gunter Muller, Toshi Nakamura, Axel Dorner, Burkhard Stangl, Greg Kelley, Jason Lescaleet, Kevin Drumm, Sean Meehan, Thomas Lehn, Marcus Schmickler - and many others - this music (some would argue that point) has nothing to do with much that precedes it in a musical way when it comes to melody, rhythm or harmony - most of these elements might initially seem missing from this music, as will the sound of anything resembleing a traditional instrumental voice - even if it might be a trumpet or guitar

[AllenLowe]

interesting, and I have to admit I know very little about those musicians - this gives me something to investigate, thanks -

[Steve Reynolds]

this is a nice link for a little historical oral commentary about the band known as AMM:

http://www.matchlessrecordings.com/amm_set.html

go to the review section for some comments from the press over the years - quite entertaining, I think

for me - the place I started was Live in Allentown (1994) and The Nameless Uncarved Block (1990). Both of these have a standard piano and standard drum kit - but it sure isn't jazz - and it is what it is

over time, Allentown became one of the prized items in my musical world - and it (along with others that followed in the new world of improvisation) changed the way I can listen to music.

Edited December 16, 2005 by Steve Reynolds

[Steve Reynolds]

AMM is one of the sources/inspiration for the eai sort of thing - sure Prevost grew up a jazz drummer - so there was always that tension between the 3 different parts (in the last trio configuration of the band (Rowe/Tilbury/Prevost) - so, no, it isn't eai music - it wasn't until the very end when Rowe stopped participating in the band (and to my mind, there is no AMM without Rowe)

fwiw, the Rowe recorded stuff I've heard from the past 5 years or so outside the world of AMM is probably, as a whole, as inspired as any musical artist that I follow - probably moreso.