was Lifetime's "Emergency!" an influence in prog/met

[CJ Shearn]

Finally picked it up yesterday after wanting it for years and hearing the vinyl years ago. Anyway, was this record an influence on prog rock, metal and punk? I consider the first two because of course there are unusual, in this case, nonsensical lyrics and long instrumental sections, and I can also hear an almost prototype metal drumming style. The punk thing, well I read it in a newsgroup once that "Emergency!" was considered an influential record in punk circles so how valid that is I don't know. Anyway comparing "Spectrum" and the title cut to Trio Beyond's versions is an interesting thing, they both function very well, and differently on their own terms.

Edited June 14, 2007 by CJ Shearn

[Guy Berger]

Robert Fripp said in an interview that he was blown away by Lifetime.

Overall, I imagine that Mahavishnu was a much bigger influence on prog rock than Lifetime.

Guy

Edited June 14, 2007 by Guy

[7/4]

Interesting question.

I'm not surprised that Fripp was blown away, I think they all knew who McLaughlin was and were following his playing. Of course Mahavishnu was the next step for him.

I also think Mahavishnu was probably a bigger influence on ProgRock.

I kind of wonder about Yes and/or ELP. Yes was too structured for any real improv, Relayer has it's fusion freakout section - but it seems composed. If Keith Emerson was influenced, he never showed it.

Any other bands that were or could have been influenced?

Henry Cow - doubt it.

Gentle Giant - don't think so.

the Mothers and other Zappa bands - not obviously so.

Pink Floyd - not much of a Jazz influence at all...

the Canterbury groups - not from Lifetime...

most of the Jazz influence on ProgRock seems to show up in one chord jams, from Kind of Blue, maybe?

[CJ Shearn]

I can kind of see that cuz Mahavishnu is more proggy. But, "Turn it Over" does cop a rock band's cover art I think. But anyway I hear various possible influences in this record and wonder if others feel the same.

[7/4]

I can kind of see that cuz Mahavishnu is more proggy. But, "Turn it Over" does cop a rock band's cover art I think. But anyway I hear various possible influences in this record and wonder if others feel the same.

It sounds like maybe you're asking what kind of influences there were on Lifetime...?

[Guy Berger]

I kind of wonder about Yes and/or ELP. Yes was too structured for any real improv, Relayer has it's fusion freakout section - but it seems composed. If Keith Emerson was influenced, he never showed it.

Well, Emerson was clearly influenced by jazz. But not necessarily by Lifetime.

[JSngry]

Lifetime was one of those things that was so much of its time that it was actually ahead of it. I don't know exactly how "influential" it ended up being in terms of style, but I think that most of the people who heard it in its time heard it hard and that it set a lot of "conceptual" wheels in motion for them.

I can tell you this though - from where I stood at the time (early 70s American teen already into "jazz rock" & rapidly discovering "real jazz"), pre-Mahavisnu Orchestra John McLaughlin was sort of a "cult figure", one of several whom people were watching with interest to see "what's going to come of all this". Lifetime was certainly a part of this equation, but the records, especially Emergency were not exactly well-produced or recorded, and, in America anyway, well-distributed & promoted. I had certainly heard of those records long before I actually got to hear them. By the time that the first Mahavisnu Orchestra album, well recorded, well-produced, well distributed & promoted, was released, Emergency, if not out of print, was anything but a readily avaiable item, and even at that, Volume 1 was a helluva lot easier to find than Vol 2 (forget about the original double LP).

I don't claim to know too much about ProgRockMetalEtc, not at all a fan overall, but looking at the chronology & musical orientations of the people involved, I'd have to think that Emergency was something that they at some, probably earlier than later, point heard & were "stimulated" by. How that translates to "influence" is probably a question of personal interpretive semantics.

[7/4]

I kind of wonder about Yes and/or ELP. Yes was too structured for any real improv, Relayer has it's fusion freakout section - but it seems composed. If Keith Emerson was influenced, he never showed it.

Well, Emerson was clearly influenced by jazz. But not necessarily by Lifetime.

Yep.

[J Larsen]

Honestly, that record sounds so bad to me it is hard to imagine that it influenced anything, but I suppose I am projecting my personal bias.

I'm not saying that it is a bad record, btw (although I truly don't think of it as a very good record) - but it *sounds* so bad to me that it is a chore to listen to.

[CJ Shearn]

I am not a huge prog rock fan either Jim, but I hear a lot of stuff in this record that sort of relates more to people of my generation. Tony's "vocals" have this sort of apathetic sense to them.

Edited June 14, 2007 by CJ Shearn

[J Larsen]

I'm giving this its first listen in a long time to make sure I wasn't unfair to the record. I really don't think it influenced prog or metal, and I am certain that it did not influence punk (it is *way* too noodley for that, plus I have never known a punk musician who had or referenced this album, and I have known quite a few of them).

Edited June 14, 2007 by J Larsen

[CJ Shearn]

Tony was definitely doing blast beats on this record though! Derek Roddy stated how jazz guys were doing that before death metal guys took it to new extremes. He was saying he had a vid of Tony (probably referencing New York Live) and how Tony was doing blast beats faster than most metal guys.

[J Larsen]

TW always sounded like more of a rock drummer to me than a jazz drummer. I think *he* might have influenced a couple more modern metal drummers (late 80s to late 90s), but my gut instinct is that in its time metal drummers/metal drummers to be were probably not hip to this particulat record. However, I can see where you are coming from.

Edit: let me also add that I am not sure if any influence is more likely direct than osmotic.

Edited June 14, 2007 by J Larsen

[CJ Shearn]

really, even on those Herbie, Miles and Sam Rivers albums you consider Tony sounding a rock player, J Larsen? Interesting. When he was a teen with Miles he hardly listened to jazz, mainly rock and pop, the Beatles, Cream, etc. I mean the bashing style started appearing on "Miles in the Sky" and the other '67 sessions that made up "Circle in the Round" and so forth. I have heard Tony play straight rock with Santana and IMO he sounded damn good.

Edited June 14, 2007 by CJ Shearn

[Shawn]

Not sure about Emergency...but I'm positive that Eddie Van Halen heard Lifetime's Believe It and copped as many Holdsworth licks as he could.

As far as the "roots of metal" are concerned, I think Classical is the more obvious influence. Deep Purple is probably the best example with Lord's symphonic aspirations and Blackmore's neo-classical guitar licks. An album like Fireball is much more of a progressive rock album than actual metal...but it was still "heavy". Sabbath grabbed onto the whole tri-tone, sturm und drang, Berlioz influenced thing (Iommi was a jazz fan though and lists Django Rheinhardt as one of his biggest influences). Then there's Zeppelin of course...who were busy copping the entire American blues book.

Don't shoot me...but I think avante-garde, free-jazz has more in common with Metal than the fusion guys. More for style of attack than the actual structure (or lack thereof).

[CJ Shearn]

yeah, that does definitely make sense. BTW, is "Believe It" worth it as a single CD issue? I heard clips of "Million Dollar Legs" and well, it sucks.

[Shawn]

Personally, I find "Believe It" to be a great session...and one that frequently hits my stereo. Tony is friggin' unbelievable (bad pun) and I really like Holdsworth's playing (a little too much wad shooting sometimes, but overall smokin'). It was reissued domestically in a twofer with MDL...I always stop the disc after Believe It is over.

[CJ Shearn]

ok, well I've found "Believe It" as a standalone single CD reasonably priced import. I also wonder what year Tony abandoned the smaller kit for the infamous yellow Gretsch with the dot heads and the huge bass drum?

Edited June 14, 2007 by CJ Shearn

[7/4]

Not sure about Emergency...but I'm positive that Eddie Van Halen heard Lifetime's Believe It and copped as many Holdsworth licks as he could.

I know the music of Allan Holdsworth, EVH is no Allan Holdsworth. Doesn't even sound like him.

[J Larsen]

They both do a lot of tapping, but I don't really see a connection beyond that.

[7/4]

They both do a lot of tapping, but I don't really see a connection beyond that.

Holdsworth doesn't do much tapping at all. Probably none in many, many years.

It's all done with one hand...the connection is the legato feel.

When we started this thread last night I was only thinking of the first lifetime and it seems like the question spread to metal...I don't even think of EVH as metal.

Edited June 14, 2007 by 7/4

[7/4]

I'm under the impression that the tapping influence on Holdsworth came from EVH! I think he was only doing it around the time of Road Games.

[J Larsen]

They both do a lot of tapping, but I don't really see a connection beyond that.

Holdsworth doesn't do much tapping at all. Probably none in many, many years.

It's all done with one hand...the connection is the legato feel.

Thanks for the correction - not sure why I associated Holdsworth with tapping. Maybe I've just heard an unrepresentative sample. But he does try to minimize the effect of his picking, doesn't he? I think of him as having a very, very light touch with his right hand.

[7/4]

But he does try to minimize the effect of his picking, doesn't he? I think of him as having a very, very light touch with his right hand.

That's it.

[Hot Ptah]

Lifetime was one of those things that was so much of its time that it was actually ahead of it. I don't know exactly how "influential" it ended up being in terms of style, but I think that most of the people who heard it in its time heard it hard and that it set a lot of "conceptual" wheels in motion for them.

I can tell you this though - from where I stood at the time (early 70s American teen already into "jazz rock" & rapidly discovering "real jazz"), pre-Mahavisnu Orchestra John McLaughlin was sort of a "cult figure", one of several whom people were watching with interest to see "what's going to come of all this". Lifetime was certainly a part of this equation, but the records, especially Emergency were not exactly well-produced or recorded, and, in America anyway, well-distributed & promoted. I had certainly heard of those records long before I actually got to hear them. By the time that the first Mahavisnu Orchestra album, well recorded, well-produced, well distributed & promoted, was released, Emergency, if not out of print, was anything but a readily avaiable item, and even at that, Volume 1 was a helluva lot easier to find than Vol 2 (forget about the original double LP).

I don't claim to know too much about ProgRockMetalEtc, not at all a fan overall, but looking at the chronology & musical orientations of the people involved, I'd have to think that Emergency was something that they at some, probably earlier than later, point heard & were "stimulated" by. How that translates to "influence" is probably a question of personal interpretive semantics.

A very good point here--it was not easy to find, or buy, "Emergency" when it came out, or for some time after that. Whether prog and metal musicians had better access to albums than the general public, and made a point to seek out "Emergency", who knows?

The general spotty availability of a lot of jazz recordings in the 1970s is probably difficult to identify with today. With no internet and no major reissue programs, it was very hit and miss to find and buy an album you had read about in a national magazine or in a book.