2007 Hot Stove League Thread

[Chalupa]

Holy crap. I'm not sure how I feel about this trade. I think I need a little while to digest it.

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/philli...lockbuster.html

[Dan Gould]

Holy crap. I'm not sure how I feel about this trade. I think I need a little while to digest it.

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/philli...lockbuster.html

Blockbuster, indeed!

I know nothing of what they gave up, but despite the reputation that he's lost it ever since Prince Albert launched that pitch a couple of years ago, I believe Lidge remains a top-flight closer. Those hits and strikeouts per 9 IP are outstanding, and I would bet that getting away from Houston will help him mentally to finally turn the page.

Putting Myers back in the rotation strengthens it significantly. So long as Lidge doesn't have to face Pujols with the pennant on the line, I think the Phils made a great trade to strengthen the team.

[Dan Gould]

Forget it, Guys.

A-Rod is going West.

You heard it here first.

Fine. Before your boy breaks the bank, make sure he reads this article about how to deal with Boras and the claims he will make:

Battling Boras

by John Brattain

November 02, 2007

Scott Boras is on the prowl. We know what he is peddling and can assume his minimum target is $30 million a year with an overall package value north of $300 million. He lives for this. He likes being the man known for getting top dollar for his clients. He is the agent who brokered the first $100 million deal and baseball’s first $200 million contract. It would be naïve to think that he doesn’t wish to be the first to negotiate a $300 million deal.

How does a team wanting to acquire Alex Rodriguez avoid giving a contract guaranteed to generate a severe case of buyer’s remorse? The first thing to understand is that Boras’ pie-in-the-sky projections are just that. In 2000, as we’ve discussed before, it was not the worst thing to overpay for what A-Rod might bring. In 2000...

* He could pick it at short with the best of them.

* In his previous three seasons, he hit 42, 42 and 41 HR.

* Two of those seasons were in a tough hitter’s park.

* He was 40-40 in 1998.

* He won a batting title (.358) at age 20 and hit .358/.414/.631 that year with 54 doubles.

* In two of the previous five seasons he garnered 215 and (a league leading) 213 hits.

* In two of the previous five seasons, he slugged over .600.

* He batted .409/.480/.773 with four runs, two HR and five RBI in the ALCS against the Yankees. The man drank pressure, licked his lips and asked for seconds.

* He was a marketing department’s dream.

…and he had accomplished all that at age 25.

There was no downside to this player. Despite Tom Hicks’ overbid, nabbing Rodriguez was a masterstroke. If the Rangers could’ve cobbled together a pitching staff without using Boras as an advisor, A-Rod might still be in Arlington. The trouble in baseball is overpaying for less than top talent—the price of mediocrity, as it were. Overpaying for what A-Rod was bringing to the table in 2000 was at worst a minor faux pas—hardly worth the hysteria that we read.

The Alex Rodriguez of 2007 is a completely different beast. This is what clubs should be pointing out to Boras to negate his outrageous claims. Let’s contrast the selling points of this year with the ones used seven years ago:

He could pick it at short with the best of them.

Now he’s an average-fielding third baseman and will likely have to switch to LF/1B/DH over the course of his contract. While his counting numbers are better, his BA/OBP/SLG (.306/.389/.578 career; .314/.422/.645 in 2007) make him the AL version of Chipper Jones (.307/.403/.546 career; .337/.425/.604 in 2007). If you really want to rub it in, you point out Jones’ .288/.411/.459 in 333 postseason AB to A-Rod’s .279/.361/.483 in 147 playoff at bats.

In his previous three seasons, he hit 42, 42 and 41 HR.

No problems here, the man still has epic home run ability.

Two of those seasons were in a tough hitter’s park.

See above. Yankee Stadium is still a tough HR park for righthanded hitters.

He was 40-40 in 1998.

That was 10 years ago. He hasn’t topped 30 SB since then and will continue to slow down as he ages.

He won a batting title (.358) at age 20 and hit .358/.414/.631 that year with 54 doubles.

Not an issue; batting titles are overrated and everybody knows Rodriguez can still mash.

In two of the previous five seasons he garnered 215 and (a league leading) 213 hits.

See above. Besides, he walks more than he did in his younger days. Not an issue.

In two of the previous five seasons he slugged over .600.

Another non-issue, he’ll have plenty of pop for years to come.

He batted .409/.480/.773 with four runs, two HR and five RBI in the ALCS against the Yankees. The man drank pressure, licked his lips and asked for seconds.

The fact that Boras included a section in his Rodriguez tome about other baseball greats' October pratfalls will demonstrate loudly and clearly how he is perceived.

He was a marketing department’s dream.

Whenever he opens his mouth, people cringe. While he has been a model of decorum (save his episode in Toronto) he is viewed as insincere if not outright deceptive:

"I’ve always said to everybody that Seattle is my first choice."

"I wanted to be a Met. I’ve always wanted to be a Met, I’ve been a Met fan since I was a kid. And I would’ve played there for less money and less years and they know that."

"I want to be remembered as a Texas Ranger."

"You're asking me what my sincere feeling is. I want to 100 percent stay in New York. Period. That's it. I don't know how many ways I can say it."

"I want to be here. I want to stay here."

"I want to be in New York. This is the place I want to finish my career. That's it.”

"We had options and we all know that, but I want to be in New York. That's it."

"I've always said it: I love New York, for me, as a player, to come full circle in New York, it's the most comfortable I've felt."

Rodriguez is viewed a phony who will say whatever it takes to maximize his income. The prevailing opinion is A-Rod will say what Boras tells him to say. He has more than his share of derisive nicknames. When Red Sox fans start chanting about not wanting A-Rod while celebrating a World Series championship, it's a good indicator of how a lot of fans feel at the moment.

…and had accomplished all that at age 25.

He’ll be 33 in late July.

Speaking of comparables, what about this one?

Regular season (2004-2007)

Player BA OBP SLG HR

David Ortiz: .302 .403 .612 208

Alex Rodriguez: .302 .391 .578 220

Post season (2004-2007)

Player BA OBP SLG HR

David Ortiz: .381 .500 .735 9

Alex Rodriguez: .245 .343 .380 4

Is Rodriguez’ defense and base running worth $20 million? If Boras is shooting for $30-33 million a year, that will be the spread between the two if A-Rod gets that much. Most of Rodriguez’ value to his new club is as a hitter. There’s one offensive comparable and it’s a five-year sample size.

Therefore, when Boras produces his flashy presentation on the glories of signing Alex Rodriguez, I would counter with the following:

Owner/GM: “In July 2008, Alex Rodriguez will be a 33-year-old average fielding third baseman who will likely have to switch to LF/1B/DH in the very near future. His level of offensive production is right around David Ortiz and Chipper Jones levels although your client is more durable. To be perfectly honest, he isn’t well thought of among a lot of fans. They don’t like him in Texas, and they really don’t like him in New York at this moment. After the Red Sox won the World Series, Boston fans were chanting that they preferred Mike Lowell to Rodriguez."

"Quite frankly, while Alex has kept his nose clean for the most part, he is generally perceived as being as phony as a three-dollar bill. This isn’t Michael Jordan or Wayne Gretzky you’re selling here. Ortiz is on a whole different level of marketability; 'Big Papi' is better liked, is now a World Series legend and makes $13 million a year.

"Here’s the perception: There is another player who isn’t well liked by fans. His name is Barry Bonds. When folks want to make fun of Bonds, they take his picture and Photoshop either a large head or these comic book superhero type arms onto him. When they wish to make fun of your client they put him in high heels and holding a purse. One is called Barroid, the other ‘Slappy.’ Do you see the problem here? Further, despite your cheery predictions, no player has produced at high levels by age 45. The closest we have is Bonds and simply put, A-Rod is no Barry Bonds and his achievements are considered suspicious.

"He will decline offensively, he will decline defensively, and he will steal fewer bases. You like using numbers Mr. Boras so you might be interested in this one: After Rodriguez’s monster year, his career OPS+ is 147. Ten players are right around that—five above and five below. The five in front are Frank Thomas, Manny Ramirez, Jim Thome, Vladmir Guerrero and Jason Giambi. The five just behind him are Lance Berkman, Miguel Cabrera, Todd Helton, Chipper Jones and Gary Sheffield. In the cases of Thomas, Ramirez, Thome and Giambi, this includes a good chunk of their decline phase—something Rodriguez has yet to begin.

"When you consider that A-Rod will make most of his money with his bat, well, there are 10 hitters in his neighborhood—are any of them looking for a 10-year/$300 million contract? Of course not. That’s absurd.

"He’ll put up some nice numbers in the next few years, we know that. Nevertheless the milestones you’re predicting are years away and the last time somebody gave your client a 10-year deal ... well, he’s looking to play for his third team in the last seven seasons. What guarantees do we have that he’ll play happily here until these milestones are set? He was tired of Texas in three years. And judging by the timing of his opt-out and the fact that you didn’t even have a face-to-face meeting with the Yankees, he couldn’t get out of New York fast enough.

"I can show you a number of statements made by your client that are the exact opposite of what he ultimately did. How can I have any peace of mind paying for these milestones knowing that I only have his word to go on?

"His bat isn’t worth $300 million—the market tells us that. A-Rod’s post season performance isn’t worth $300 million—he has yet to play in a World Series game. Alex’s image isn’t worth $300 million—a lot of people tell us that.

"Rodriguez’s word that he’ll play here for the duration of his contract is most certainly not worth $300 million and no amount of defense and base running is worth $300 million. There are no guarantees that he’ll stay healthy or not get injured away from the field over the next 10 years and no company will insure the sort of contract you’re proposing.

"Let’s be more realistic here and start again, shall we?”

Caveat emptor.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/battling-boras/

[Chalupa]

Holy crap. I'm not sure how I feel about this trade. I think I need a little while to digest it.

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/philli...lockbuster.html

Blockbuster, indeed!

I know nothing of what they gave up, but despite the reputation that he's lost it ever since Prince Albert launched that pitch a couple of years ago, I believe Lidge remains a top-flight closer. Those hits and strikeouts per 9 IP are outstanding, and I would bet that getting away from Houston will help him mentally to finally turn the page.

Putting Myers back in the rotation strengthens it significantly. So long as Lidge doesn't have to face Pujols with the pennant on the line, I think the Phils made a great trade to strengthen the team.

Yes, I like putting Myers back in the rotation. Now the money they had earmarked for a FA starter can be used to re-sign J.C. Romero(and hopefully Rowand), who pitched really well the 2nd half of the season.

I did a little research on the 3B prospect they gave up. He struck out 157 times in Double A ball last year. I can't see that number going down as he moves up. And apparently he has no glove. So for a one year rental they didn't give up too much.

[Dan Gould]

Holy crap. I'm not sure how I feel about this trade. I think I need a little while to digest it.

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/philli...lockbuster.html

Blockbuster, indeed!

I know nothing of what they gave up, but despite the reputation that he's lost it ever since Prince Albert launched that pitch a couple of years ago, I believe Lidge remains a top-flight closer. Those hits and strikeouts per 9 IP are outstanding, and I would bet that getting away from Houston will help him mentally to finally turn the page.

Putting Myers back in the rotation strengthens it significantly. So long as Lidge doesn't have to face Pujols with the pennant on the line, I think the Phils made a great trade to strengthen the team.

Yes, I like putting Myers back in the rotation. Now the money they had earmarked for a FA starter can be used to re-sign J.C. Romero(and hopefully Rowand), who pitched really well the 2nd half of the season.

I did a little research on the 3B prospect they gave up. He struck out 157 times in Double A ball last year. I can't see that number going down as he moves up. And apparently he has no glove. So for a one year rental they didn't give up too much.

Plus keep in mind that Myers is a better starter than the FA options that are out there. JC Romero and Flash will make decent setup men for Lidge. Depending on what the Mets do, I think this makes the Phils even stronger contenders.

[Tim McG]

Dan,

The LA Angels of Anahiem [what a stupid name] are on the West coast, too

[Quincy]

Dan,

The LA Angels of Anahiem [what a stupid name] are on the West coast, too

That's been my pick for where he goes ever since last summer's compliment exchange festival they had with each other. I also think that just like the last contract, only even more so this time, the dollar amount will be overstated with low interest paid on deferred money. As most people don't understand the time value of money ARod & agent will get the massive ego-stroke of big money amounts, never mind that the 1/2 the payday will be post-2020 at 2.5% interest or whatever. (Not to say the money won't be great, it just isn't as big as stated when structured like that.)

[Tim McG]

Dan,

The LA Angels of Anahiem [what a stupid name] are on the West coast, too

That's been my pick for where he goes ever since last summer's compliment exchange festival they had with each other. I also think that just like the last contract, only even more so this time, the dollar amount will be overstated with low interest paid on deferred money. As most people don't understand the time value of money ARod & agent will get the massive ego-stroke of big money amounts, never mind that the 1/2 the payday will be post-2020 at 2.5% interest or whatever. (Not to say the money won't be great, it just isn't as big as stated when structured like that.)

From what I've read it appears the LA Angels of Anahiem [ugh] are making it no secret they are interested in signing him.

If the Giants can't make it happen, I'd rather see A-Rod in LAA of A uniform than in a [hated] Dodgers uniform in a heartbeat.

[alocispepraluger102]

free agents on mitchell list?

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=jp-p...o&type=lgns

joe torre is already writing a (tell-all?) book.

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/reds..._things_20.html

Edited November 8, 2007 by alocispepraluger102

[GARussell]

After Rodriguez’s monster year, his career OPS+ is 147.

What is that? Is a good number high or low?

[Tim McG]

After Rodriguez’s monster year, his career OPS+ is 147.

What is that? Is a good number high or low?

Forget it Russell....numbers only tell half the story.

[Dan Gould]

After Rodriguez’s monster year, his career OPS+ is 147.

What is that? Is a good number high or low?

Forget it Russell....numbers only tell half the story.

No, they tell a very large portion of the story, and numbers like OPS+ tell more than traditional measures like BA, RBI or the like.

OPS is On-base percentage plus slugging.

OPS+ is a normalized for park and league effects. 100 means you are an average player. Less than 100 is below average, more than 100 is above average (if you see a number for ERA+ fora pitcher, its the same deal - 100 is league average, less is worse than league average, more is better than league average). To put Rodriguez' 147 in perspective, go back to the quoted article:

After Rodriguez’s monster year, his career OPS+ is 147. Ten players are right around that—five above and five below. The five in front are Frank Thomas, Manny Ramirez, Jim Thome, Vladmir Guerrero and Jason Giambi. The five just behind him are Lance Berkman, Miguel Cabrera, Todd Helton, Chipper Jones and Gary Sheffield.

Are any of those players earning 30 million plus? Are any of them likely to ask for it in the near future? Cabrera is the only one clearly in his prime, or entering it, and he will never approach what Boras is asking teams to pay A-Rod.

[Soulstation1]

is the world series over?

[Tim McG]

After Rodriguez’s monster year, his career OPS+ is 147.

What is that? Is a good number high or low?

Forget it Russell....numbers only tell half the story.

No, they tell a very large portion of the story, and numbers like OPS+ tell more than traditional measures like BA, RBI or the like.

OPS is On-base percentage plus slugging.

OPS+ is a normalized for park and league effects. 100 means you are an average player. Less than 100 is below average, more than 100 is above average (if you see a number for ERA+ fora pitcher, its the same deal - 100 is league average, less is worse than league average, more is better than league average). To put Rodriguez' 147 in perspective, go back to the quoted article:

After Rodriguez’s monster year, his career OPS+ is 147. Ten players are right around that—five above and five below. The five in front are Frank Thomas, Manny Ramirez, Jim Thome, Vladmir Guerrero and Jason Giambi. The five just behind him are Lance Berkman, Miguel Cabrera, Todd Helton, Chipper Jones and Gary Sheffield.

Are any of those players earning 30 million plus? Are any of them likely to ask for it in the near future? Cabrera is the only one clearly in his prime, or entering it, and he will never approach what Boras is asking teams to pay A-Rod.

Do numbers/statistics show motivation? Heart of a champion? Determination? Attitude? In game situations like sacrifice bunts or sacrifice flies? Bad calls by the umpires? Momentum?

I could go on.....

[Tim McG]

is the world series over?

Yer killin' me, SoulStation.

[Dan Gould]

After Rodriguez’s monster year, his career OPS+ is 147.

What is that? Is a good number high or low?

Forget it Russell....numbers only tell half the story.

No, they tell a very large portion of the story, and numbers like OPS+ tell more than traditional measures like BA, RBI or the like.

OPS is On-base percentage plus slugging.

OPS+ is a normalized for park and league effects. 100 means you are an average player. Less than 100 is below average, more than 100 is above average (if you see a number for ERA+ fora pitcher, its the same deal - 100 is league average, less is worse than league average, more is better than league average). To put Rodriguez' 147 in perspective, go back to the quoted article:

After Rodriguez’s monster year, his career OPS+ is 147. Ten players are right around that—five above and five below. The five in front are Frank Thomas, Manny Ramirez, Jim Thome, Vladmir Guerrero and Jason Giambi. The five just behind him are Lance Berkman, Miguel Cabrera, Todd Helton, Chipper Jones and Gary Sheffield.

Are any of those players earning 30 million plus? Are any of them likely to ask for it in the near future? Cabrera is the only one clearly in his prime, or entering it, and he will never approach what Boras is asking teams to pay A-Rod.

Do numbers/statistics show motivation? Heart of a champion? Determination? Attitude? In game situations like sacrifice bunts or sacrifice flies? Bad calls by the umpires? Momentum?

I could go on.....

Has A-Rod shown the heart of a champion? Determination?

Let me guess - you think that David Epstein is some fantastic player, right? Tell me you do, because he's got tremendous "heart" "determination" and a killer "attitude".

So you tell me that Epstein is the kind of guy that every team should dream of having. Go ahead, tell me.

Or, tell me the player who you think best shows "heart" and "determination" and "attitude".

The rest of your list is game specific events that have nothing to do with statistical analysis.

[Tim McG]

After Rodriguez’s monster year, his career OPS+ is 147.

What is that? Is a good number high or low?

Forget it Russell....numbers only tell half the story.

No, they tell a very large portion of the story, and numbers like OPS+ tell more than traditional measures like BA, RBI or the like.

OPS is On-base percentage plus slugging.

OPS+ is a normalized for park and league effects. 100 means you are an average player. Less than 100 is below average, more than 100 is above average (if you see a number for ERA+ fora pitcher, its the same deal - 100 is league average, less is worse than league average, more is better than league average). To put Rodriguez' 147 in perspective, go back to the quoted article:

After Rodriguez’s monster year, his career OPS+ is 147. Ten players are right around that—five above and five below. The five in front are Frank Thomas, Manny Ramirez, Jim Thome, Vladmir Guerrero and Jason Giambi. The five just behind him are Lance Berkman, Miguel Cabrera, Todd Helton, Chipper Jones and Gary Sheffield.

Are any of those players earning 30 million plus? Are any of them likely to ask for it in the near future? Cabrera is the only one clearly in his prime, or entering it, and he will never approach what Boras is asking teams to pay A-Rod.

Do numbers/statistics show motivation? Heart of a champion? Determination? Attitude? In game situations like sacrifice bunts or sacrifice flies? Bad calls by the umpires? Momentum?

I could go on.....

Has A-Rod shown the heart of a champion? Determination?

Let me guess - you think that David Epstein is some fantastic player, right? Tell me you do, because he's got tremendous "heart" "determination" and a killer "attitude".

So you tell me that Epstein is the kind of guy that every team should dream of having. Go ahead, tell me.

Or, tell me the player who you think best shows "heart" and "determination" and "attitude".

The rest of your list is game specific events that have nothing to do with statistical analysis.

StatHead, right?

Dan, if all you relate to is numbers for your evidence of an excellent baseball player then you have just proven my point.

Epstein....? That is the hill you choose to die on?

Yer killin' me here.

[Dan Gould]

After Rodriguez’s monster year, his career OPS+ is 147.

What is that? Is a good number high or low?

Forget it Russell....numbers only tell half the story.

No, they tell a very large portion of the story, and numbers like OPS+ tell more than traditional measures like BA, RBI or the like.

OPS is On-base percentage plus slugging.

OPS+ is a normalized for park and league effects. 100 means you are an average player. Less than 100 is below average, more than 100 is above average (if you see a number for ERA+ fora pitcher, its the same deal - 100 is league average, less is worse than league average, more is better than league average). To put Rodriguez' 147 in perspective, go back to the quoted article:

After Rodriguez’s monster year, his career OPS+ is 147. Ten players are right around that—five above and five below. The five in front are Frank Thomas, Manny Ramirez, Jim Thome, Vladmir Guerrero and Jason Giambi. The five just behind him are Lance Berkman, Miguel Cabrera, Todd Helton, Chipper Jones and Gary Sheffield.

Are any of those players earning 30 million plus? Are any of them likely to ask for it in the near future? Cabrera is the only one clearly in his prime, or entering it, and he will never approach what Boras is asking teams to pay A-Rod.

Do numbers/statistics show motivation? Heart of a champion? Determination? Attitude? In game situations like sacrifice bunts or sacrifice flies? Bad calls by the umpires? Momentum?

I could go on.....

Has A-Rod shown the heart of a champion? Determination?

Let me guess - you think that David Epstein is some fantastic player, right? Tell me you do, because he's got tremendous "heart" "determination" and a killer "attitude".

So you tell me that Epstein is the kind of guy that every team should dream of having. Go ahead, tell me.

Or, tell me the player who you think best shows "heart" and "determination" and "attitude".

The rest of your list is game specific events that have nothing to do with statistical analysis.

StatHead, right?

Dan, if all you relate to is numbers for your evidence of an excellent baseball player then you have just proven my point.

Epstein....? That is the hill you choose to die on?

Yer killin' me here.

Here's a newsflash for ya: Numbers have defined baseball since the dawn of the modern game. We happen to have better numbers today.

If you think "heart" and "determination" have some meaning in defining greatness, have it. How about if you say that David Ortiz has the "heart of a champion" because he's had "clutch" hits in the post-season.

I'll stick with he's great in the post-season because from 2004-2007, he has an OBP of .500 and slugged over .700.

"Heart of a champion" is a cliche with no meaning whatsoever. Does Jeter have the "heart of a champion"? That's complete bullshit.

Now, tell me who defines "heart of a champion" and the other cliches you spouted. Tell me. Because it makes me think that you believe there are "great" players who no one looking at statistics would describe as "great". So tell me - who has the "heart of a champion" and "determination"?????

[Chalupa]

Just because....

[GARussell]

Thanks for the explanation, Dan.

The only player I can think of who had a reputation for being better than his stats was Eddie Stanky. Chuck probably remembers him. They used to say that he was known for his "intangibles".

[Tim McG]

Thanks for the explanation, Dan.

The only player I can think of who had a reputation for being better than his stats was Eddie Stanky. Chuck probably remembers him. They used to say that he was known for his "intangibles".

Eddie Stanky?

I'm dyin' here....

[Tim McG]

Here's a news flash for you, Dan: Numbers only count, they do not predict nor do they measure the intangibles of this game.

I defy you to prove otherwise.

[Dan Gould]

Here's a news flash for you, Dan: Numbers only count, they do not predict nor do they measure the intangibles of this game.

I defy you to prove otherwise.

Your "intangibles" are stupid cliches that apply more to games in which brute force is crucial (football), or a willingness to have your brains beaten in yet not give up (boxing) or extreme mental toughness (tennis). There is NOTHING about the "heart of a champion" or "determination" that makes a player great. "Determination" might apply to a drive to succeed, shown by, say, Manny Ramirez and the fact that he shows up to hit in the cage at 10 AM for a 7:05 start. But that work ethic means nothing until he performs in a game, where measures like OPS+ demonstrate that he is one of the premier hitters of his generation, a first ballot hall of famer. "Determination" isn't going to end up on his plaque, but I bet there will be a lengthy mention of his statistical achievements.

And let's apply your intangibles CRAP to where it belongs: football. Did John Elway LACK the "heart of a champion" for all those years that Denver failed, but then he magically developed it and that's why he was able to completely transform his reputation? :rolleyes: NO. He PERFORMED better when it counted. No "heart of a champion" crap transformed him. He didn't eat Wheaties every day for a year either.

And your "intangibles" "predict" outcomes? Who said a fucking thing about "predicting"? Numbers describe. Better numbers describe better. Tell me how "intangibles" do any predicting.

Let's look deeper into your claim about "intangibles". For intangibles to make modern statistical analysis unusable or worthless or flawed, then these "intangibles" must be the defining characteristic of some set of players who are not identified as "great" by statistics.

WHO ARE THEY?

[alocispepraluger102]

After Rodriguez’s monster year, his career OPS+ is 147.

What is that? Is a good number high or low?

Forget it Russell....numbers only tell half the story.

No, they tell a very large portion of the story, and numbers like OPS+ tell more than traditional measures like BA, RBI or the like.

OPS is On-base percentage plus slugging.

OPS+ is a normalized for park and league effects. 100 means you are an average player. Less than 100 is below average, more than 100 is above average (if you see a number for ERA+ fora pitcher, its the same deal - 100 is league average, less is worse than league average, more is better than league average). To put Rodriguez' 147 in perspective, go back to the quoted article:

After Rodriguez’s monster year, his career OPS+ is 147. Ten players are right around that—five above and five below. The five in front are Frank Thomas, Manny Ramirez, Jim Thome, Vladmir Guerrero and Jason Giambi. The five just behind him are Lance Berkman, Miguel Cabrera, Todd Helton, Chipper Jones and Gary Sheffield.

Are any of those players earning 30 million plus? Are any of them likely to ask for it in the near future? Cabrera is the only one clearly in his prime, or entering it, and he will never approach what Boras is asking teams to pay A-Rod.

Do numbers/statistics show motivation? Heart of a champion? Determination? Attitude? In game situations like sacrifice bunts or sacrifice flies? Bad calls by the umpires? Momentum?

I could go on.....

Has A-Rod shown the heart of a champion? Determination?

Let me guess - you think that David Epstein is some fantastic player, right? Tell me you do, because he's got tremendous "heart" "determination" and a killer "attitude".

So you tell me that Epstein is the kind of guy that every team should dream of having. Go ahead, tell me.

Or, tell me the player who you think best shows "heart" and "determination" and "attitude".

The rest of your list is game specific events that have nothing to do with statistical analysis.

StatHead, right?

Dan, if all you relate to is numbers for your evidence of an excellent baseball player then you have just proven my point.

Epstein....? That is the hill you choose to die on?

Yer killin' me here.

Here's a newsflash for ya: Numbers have defined baseball since the dawn of the modern game. We happen to have better numbers today.

If you think "heart" and "determination" have some meaning in defining greatness, have it. How about if you say that David Ortiz has the "heart of a champion" because he's had "clutch" hits in the post-season.

I'll stick with he's great in the post-season because from 2004-2007, he has an OBP of .500 and slugged over .700.

"Heart of a champion" is a cliche with no meaning whatsoever. Does Jeter have the "heart of a champion"? That's complete bullshit.

Now, tell me who defines "heart of a champion" and the other cliches you spouted. Tell me. Because it makes me think that you believe there are "great" players who no one looking at statistics would describe as "great". So tell me - who has the "heart of a champion" and "determination"?????

cant stand the stats flashed across the screen during sporting events.

when i want to play with stats i tear into one of my books of mathematical formulas or those marvelous market stats.

the games and performers have a beauty and pace and emotion that cannot be measured in numbers. just as in music it takes but an instant to spot outstanding and mediocre performers.

i am eagerly awaiting the day when sporting event viewers will have an option to shut off garbage screen displays and useless tickers and endless replays of every play.

thank god we can kill the sound and listen to quality music.

Edited November 9, 2007 by alocispepraluger102

[GA Russell]

i am eagerly awaiting the day when sporting event viewers will have an option to shut off garbage screen displays and useless tickers and endless replays of every play.

Amen aloc!

That's why I prefer listening to the radio over watching a football or baseball game on TV. On the radio they talk about the game. On TV they talk about the replay.