fletcher henderson DID NOT record for prestiege?>!?!!&#

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

i took a gander at that prestige disocg-- what is up w/ duke ellingtion bieng the 1st artists on prestesige? were those prestiege lps just reissues or another companys stuff, or did bob weinstock really record that?

[Big Beat Steve]

In case you're referring to Prestige 7645 containing Ellington recordings of 1933, these were originally released on Columbia. In 1933 the Prestige label was a VERY long way away.

And in case you're referring to the 1944/46/47 Carnegie Hall concerts issued in the 24000 twofer series, these were originally recorded by Jerry Valburn (when Prestige did not exist yet either) but not released on Prestige (or anywhere else) before these twofers came along. And when did these come along? In the 70s - at a time Prestige had been around for more than 20 years.

Whoever presented a label discography in such a manner that recording dates could be understood to give the impression the dates indicate the first recordings FOR RELEASE ON THE LABEL (without regard to recordings leased from other companies or simply being reissued) sure made a fine mess of it.

And where does Fletcher Henderson come into all this? (Except that he also is on Prestige 7645)

Now this sure is some weird post... :D

[Christiern]

BBS wrote: "And in case you're referring to the 1944/46/47 Carnegie Hall concerts issued in the 24000 twofer series, these were originally recorded by Jerry Valburn (when Prestige did not exist yet either) but not released on Prestige (or anywhere else) before these twofers came along. And when did these come along? In the 70s - at a time Prestige had been around for more than 20 years."

Adding fiction to Chewy's confusion only compounds it! Jerry Valburn is (was?) a light-fingered Ellington fanatic who started a bootleg label (and launched the short-lived bootleg career of Rosetta Reitz), but rest assured that he did not record a single note in Carnegie Hall during the 1940s! Where do you get your information?

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

In case you're referring to Prestige 7645 containing Ellington recordings of 1933, these were originally released on Columbia. In 1933 the Prestige label was a VERY long way away.

And in case you're referring to the 1944/46/47 Carnegie Hall concerts issued in the 24000 twofer series, these were originally recorded by Jerry Valburn (when Prestige did not exist yet either) but not released on Prestige (or anywhere else) before these twofers came along. And when did these come along? In the 70s - at a time Prestige had been around for more than 20 years.

Whoever presented a label discography in such a manner that recording dates could be understood to give the impression the dates indicate the first recordings FOR RELEASE ON THE LABEL (without regard to recordings leased from other companies or simply being reissued) sure made a fine mess of it.

And where does Fletcher Henderson come into all this? (Except that he also is on Prestige 7645)

Now this sure is some weird post... :D

The Michel Ruppli Prestige discography lists all licensed material in a different section to Prestige's own sessions. And all Ruppli label discographies that I've seen do the same.

Perhaps there is some kind of logic fault in Brian or whatever the discographical database Mike works in is called. It was, I guess, designed with the usual discographical purpose - artist discography - in mind.

MG

[jazztrain]

OK, there are a few issues to address here.

First of all, Fletcher Henderson obviously never recorded for Prestige.

However, two Fletcher Henderson sessions (one of which was issued under the name of Horace Henderson and His Orchestra) appear on Prestige 7645 ("The Big Bands/1933").

The first of the two Henderson sessions, from September 22, 1933, was recorded for Columbia.

The second of the two Henderson sessions, from October 3, 1933 was recorded for English Parlophone and issued under Horace Henderson's name (although it's exactly the same group). Horace Henderson is on piano for both sessions.

Next, the reference to "light fingered" Jerry. My understanding was that it was an associate (referred to as "Charlie Cats" or something like that on some of the LPs) of Jerry who had access to the Columbia vaults. Whatever the source, Jerry was able to issue a lot of material that otherwise would have unlikely seen the light of day on a host of labels including Meritt, Blu-Disc, Up-To-Date, DETS (Duke Ellington Treasury Series), Everybodys, Jazz Archive, and Aviva (and I'm probably forgetting a few).

In case you're referring to Prestige 7645 containing Ellington recordings of 1933, these were originally released on Columbia. In 1933 the Prestige label was a VERY long way away.

And in case you're referring to the 1944/46/47 Carnegie Hall concerts issued in the 24000 twofer series, these were originally recorded by Jerry Valburn (when Prestige did not exist yet either) but not released on Prestige (or anywhere else) before these twofers came along. And when did these come along? In the 70s - at a time Prestige had been around for more than 20 years.

Whoever presented a label discography in such a manner that recording dates could be understood to give the impression the dates indicate the first recordings FOR RELEASE ON THE LABEL (without regard to recordings leased from other companies or simply being reissued) sure made a fine mess of it.

And where does Fletcher Henderson come into all this? (Except that he also is on Prestige 7645)

Now this sure is some weird post... :D

The Michel Ruppli Prestige discography lists all licensed material in a different section to Prestige's own sessions. And all Ruppli label discographies that I've seen do the same.

Perhaps there is some kind of logic fault in Brian or whatever the discographical database Mike works in is called. It was, I guess, designed with the usual discographical purpose - artist discography - in mind.

MG

[Christiern]

jazztrain wrote: "Next, the reference to "light fingered" Jerry. My understanding was that it was an associate (referred to as "Charlie Cats" or something like that on some of the LPs) of Jerry who had access to the Columbia vaults. Whatever the source, Jerry was able to issue a lot of material that otherwise would have unlikely seen the light of day on a host of labels including Meritt, Blu-Disc, Up-To-Date, DETS (Duke Ellington Treasury Series), Everybodys, Jazz Archive, and Aviva (and I'm probably forgetting a few)."

I know about the theft from Columbia (the culprit was--and I am guessing here--either Driggs or Altschuler. I also have personal experience with those clammy light fingers in that they whisked away a couple of hundred test pressings of mine. You are quite correct re the licensing--when Don Schlitten was at Prestige, they made deals with Parlophone (as well as other European labels).

[Christiern]

Chewy, please remove the extra "e" from your header, just in case someone at a later date needs to do a search for this thread.

Thank you

[Big Beat Steve]

@Chris Albertson:

I got the name of Jerry Valburn from "The Prestige Book (Discography of all series), Jazz Critique Special Edition 1996" published in Japan. On page 294 (listing of the Prestige twofers) the name Jerry Valburn is mentioned as the source in connection with the twofers 24073, 24074 and 24075 that contain the Carnegie Hall concert recordings which (according to Bruyninckx) were first issued on those twofers at all.

Now if the Japanese slipped on this one and the name of Jerry Valburn is incorrect in connection with these recordings, then I do stand corrected, but it's the Japanese who are to blame.

@MG:

Your reference to michel Ruppli is quite correct, of course. I know leased or reissued recordings not originally done for the respective label are listed separately by Ruppli (and I was thinking of his discographies as a model, of course), hence my surprise that any Ellington entries should appear anywhere in a manner that would make it even possible that they were the earliest recordings done for Prestige (as Chewy's post suggests).

[Christiern]

It is one thing to have been the "source" of material and quite another to have "recorded" it, as you wrote. Jerry was the source for many things not openly acquired. It has long been the practice of discographers to list the label and catalogue number of initial releases first, whether or not that label originated the recording.

[jazztrain]

Big Beat Steve:

Apparently the Japanese are to blame. I just pulled the Prestige twofers (24073, 24074, and 24075) as well as the three-LP set (34004). They all contain the following notation: "Reprocessed, from original source material, by Jerry Valburn and Jack Towers." Therefore, the discography that you mention below apparently confuses the reference to sound restoration on the LP packaging with the original source of the material.

@Chris Albertson:

I got the name of Jerry Valburn from "The Prestige Book (Discography of all series), Jazz Critique Special Edition 1996" published in Japan. On page 294 (listing of the Prestige twofers) the name Jerry Valburn is mentioned as the source in connection with the twofers 24073, 24074 and 24075 that contain the Carnegie Hall concert recordings which (according to Bruyninckx) were first issued on those twofers at all.

Now if the Japanese slipped on this one and the name of Jerry Valburn is incorrect in connection with these recordings, then I do stand corrected, but it's the Japanese who are to blame.

@MG:

Your reference to michel Ruppli is quite correct, of course. I know leased or reissued recordings not originally done for the respective label are listed separately by Ruppli (and I was thinking of his discographies as a model, of course), hence my surprise that any Ellington entries should appear anywhere in a manner that would make it even possible that they were the earliest recordings done for Prestige (as Chewy's post suggests).

[Big Beat Steve]

Thanks for clarifying this, Jazztrain.

The Japanese Prestige book I quoted from states in conjunction with these three twofers:

"Original Jerry Valburn recording". (Hence my statement above)

Evidently the book' authors are in error, considering what the liner notes say, and more than just slightly misleading.

[jazztrain]

Chris:

Several years ago someone told me the real name of "Charles Cats." I don't clearly remember the name now, but I'm fairly sure it wasn't Driggs or Altschuler. Of course, the information may not have been accurate or may have been intended to mislead.

jazztrain wrote: "Next, the reference to "light fingered" Jerry. My understanding was that it was an associate (referred to as "Charlie Cats" or something like that on some of the LPs) of Jerry who had access to the Columbia vaults. Whatever the source, Jerry was able to issue a lot of material that otherwise would have unlikely seen the light of day on a host of labels including Meritt, Blu-Disc, Up-To-Date, DETS (Duke Ellington Treasury Series), Everybodys, Jazz Archive, and Aviva (and I'm probably forgetting a few)."

I know about the theft from Columbia (the culprit was--and I am guessing here--either Driggs or Altschuler. I also have personal experience with those clammy light fingers in that they whisked away a couple of hundred test pressings of mine. You are quite correct re the licensing--when Don Schlitten was at Prestige, they made deals with Parlophone (as well as other European labels).