Kyo Posted January 20, 2008 Report Share Posted January 20, 2008 (edited) I'm currently researching Serge Chaloff's discography and there are three different compilation discs covering what I guess was (most of) the first disc of the old Mosaic set. Each of them is a little bit different in terms of bonus material but it's hard to find any reliable info on those extra tracks. Those are the track listings with the "exclusive" material in bold font: A Proper Introduction to Serge Chaloff - The Baritone Sax Master 1. Blue Serge 2. Curbstone Scuffle 3. Nocturne 4. Woodchopper's Holiday 5. All God's Children Got Rhythm 6. Elevation 7. Fine and Dandy 8. Goof and I 9. Pumpernickel 10. Gabardine and Serge 11. Serge's Urge 12. Bar a Second 13. We the People Bop 14. Chickasaw 15. Bop Scotch 16. Most 17. Pat 18. King Edward the Flatted Fifth 19. Goof and I 20. Everything Happens to Me 21. Pennies from Heaven 22. Four Brothers The Complete Small Group Bop Sessions (Jazz Factory) 1. Red Cross 2. Billie's Bounce 3. Body and Soul 4. Blue Serge 5. Curbstone Scuffle [-G] - Sonny Berman, Serge Chaloff, 6. Nocturn - Sonny Berman, Serge Chaloff, 7. Woodchopper's Holiday [-C] - Sonny Berman, Serge Chaloff, 8. Blue Serge [-A] 9. All God's Children Got Swing - Serge Chaloff, 10. Elevation - Serge Chaloff, 11. Fine and Dandy - Serge Chaloff, 12. Goof and I - Serge Chaloff, 13. Pumpernickel - Serge Chaloff Sextette 14. Gabardine and Serge [-2] - Serge Chaloff Sextette 15. Serge's Urge - Serge Chaloff Sextette 16. Bar a Second - Serge Chaloff Sextette 17. Chickasaw 18. Bop Scotch 19. Most! 20. Chasin' the Bass 21. Pat 22. King Edward the Flatted Fifth 23. Blue Serge [-B/C] Serge Chaloff Memorial - We the People Bop 1. Blue Serge 2. Blue Serge (2nd) 3. Curbstone Scuffle 4. Nocturne 5. Woodchopper's Holiday 6. All God's Children Got Rhythm 7. Elevation 8. Fine And Dandy 9. Good And I 10. Pumpernickel 11. Gabardine And Serge 12. Serge's Urge 13. Bar Second 14. We The Bop People 15. Cickasaw 16. Bopscotch 17. Most 18. Pat 19. King Edward The Flatted Fith 20. Move 21. Hot House 22. Ornithology I assume that the first two discs' bonus tracks are from the Boston 1950 Uptown disc which would make the last set the most interesting of them - however I have no idea where those final tracks are from and who plays on them. Maybe some people who have bought one of these sets can shed some light on this. I would also assume that those tracks that all the CDs share are ripped straight from the old Mosaic set. But if one of those discs sounds significantly better than the others (or has better annotation), I'd also like to hear about it. Thanks! Edited January 20, 2008 by Kyo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swinging Swede Posted January 20, 2008 Report Share Posted January 20, 2008 I have the Cool & Blue CD which came out already in 1992 (When did the Mosaic come out?). The last three tracks are from an all star session at Carnegie Hall. Here's the jazzdisco.org info: The Stars Of Modern Jazz Miles Davis (tp) Bennie Green (tb) Sonny Stitt (as) Serge Chaloff (bars) Bud Powell (p) Curly Russell (b) Max Roach (d) 'The Stars Of Modern Jazz', "Carnegie Hall", NYC, December 25, 1949 Symphony Sid's Remarks IAJRC 20 Move IAJRC 20; Jass JCD 16 Hot House - Ornithology (inc.) - * Various Artists - Stars Of Modern Jazz Concert At Carnegie Hall (IAJRC 20) * Various Artists - Carnegie Hall X-Mas '49: Charlie Parker And The Stars Of Modern Jazz At Carnegie Hall (Jass JCD 16) I also have that Jass CD which has the complete concert, or at least what survives from it. 75 minutes with the Bud Powell Trio, the aforementioned all star session including Miles, Stitt and Chaloff, Stan Getz-Kai Winding Quintet, Stan Getz Quartet, Sarah Vaughan, Lennie Tristano-Lee Konitz Sextet, and last, but not least, five tracks with the Charlie Parker Quintet with Red Rodney. This is one of the great concerts in jazz history and I highly recommend the Jass CD (which is OOP), or some other later release of the same material. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Beat Steve Posted January 20, 2008 Report Share Posted January 20, 2008 (edited) By all means get the "Boston 1950" set on Uptown (if you haven't done so already). As for the three CD's you're listing, aren't they for complete novices only? Hey, all of those tracks have been all over the place in countless other compilations so should be present in relatively advanced collections of serious collectors anyhow. Maybe you might want to check your collection to see how many duplicates you might be running up with these. The three final tracks on the Cool'n'Blue CD must be from the "Stars of Modern Jazz" concert at Carnegie Hall, Christmas 1949. The line-up includes Miles Davis, Sonny Stitt, Benny Green and Curley Russell (all names are indicated on the cover you scanned). The entire concert has been out on IAJRC 20 (LP) (and certainly elsewhere), so again nothing exclusive here. (P.S. Ha, Swingin' Swede beat me to the Xmas info while I was typing mine from the LP cover ) Edited January 20, 2008 by Big Beat Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyo Posted January 21, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2008 (edited) By all means get the "Boston 1950" set on Uptown (if you haven't done so already). As for the three CD's you're listing, aren't they for complete novices only? Hey, all of those tracks have been all over the place in countless other compilations so should be present in relatively advanced collections of serious collectors anyhow. I'm definitely going to get the Boston 1950 CD. As for the other discs mentioned above, what I have from those CDs is the Dial material on the Gillespie/Berman disc - and I'll probably get the Oscar Pettiford Sextet stuff on Debut soon. The Savoy session with Pumpernickel for example seems to be only on some out of print Japanese various artists CD ("Lestorian Mode") . The other interesting material is the Red Rodney's Beboppers session which I could only get on an out of print Keynote CD (it wasn't even part of the Mosaic set). Those two sessions on really expensive rare discs alone would make one of those compilations worth getting, especially since those are all really cheap. Thanks for recommending the Carnegie Hall X-Mas '49 disc. It seems very hard to get, but I'll keep looking for it. Scanning the usual channels I haven't seen a single copy offered. So far the Cool'n'Blue CD seems like the way to go for me. Most online stores list it as a 2005 release by the way - I'd just like to make sure it came out after the Mosaic... Edited January 21, 2008 by Kyo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Beat Steve Posted January 21, 2008 Report Share Posted January 21, 2008 Most online stores list it as a 2005 release by the way - I'd just like to make sure it came out after the Mosaic... It definitely did not. I have a few of these Cool'n'Blue CD's, and the booklet to the Teddy Edwards CD which has a release date of 1994 lists the Serge Chaloff CD among the previous releases in that series (actually one of the earliest), so the date of 1992 given by Swingin' Swede could well be correct. The 2005 date therefore might be a repressing date. BTW, the entire Savoy "Pumpernickel" session (with alt. takes) is on the well-known "Brothers and Other Mothers" 2-LP set which I trust cannot be THAT rare in secondhand circles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyo Posted January 21, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2008 Probably not, but I don't ever buy LPs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Beat Steve Posted January 21, 2008 Report Share Posted January 21, 2008 Probably not, but I don't ever buy LPs. Your loss ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyo Posted January 21, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2008 (edited) I have the Cool & Blue CD which came out already in 1992 (When did the Mosaic come out?). It seems the Mosaic came out in 1993, which would be quite odd. Hmmm... Maybe it was reissued in 2005 (possibly re-mastered?), after all many usually reliable sources claim that's the year that it came out. How is the sound of the Cool & Blue CD anyway? Edited January 21, 2008 by Kyo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swinging Swede Posted January 21, 2008 Report Share Posted January 21, 2008 I've had the CD for probably about 15 years, at least well over 10, so 2005 must be a re-pressing date. It may have been out of print before that. There haven't been any new Cool & Blue titles since the mid-90s anyway. Usually they regularly start up new labels, but Cool & Blue for some reason has been abandoned. As for the sound I'll have to listen to it again and post my impressions later. I seem to remember that it wasn't Mosaic quality, but if the 2005 edition has been newly remastered, it doesn't matter how the 1992 version sounds anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyo Posted February 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2008 I still haven't decided which way to go with early Serge Chaloff but I managed to find a copy of this CD for just 7 Euro today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swinging Swede Posted February 9, 2008 Report Share Posted February 9, 2008 Congratulations! Then you don't have to worry about the three last tracks on the Cool & Blue CD since you already have them on the Jass CD. The "bonus" tracks on the Proper and Jazz Factory CDs are taken from the Uptown CD, so you will get them there anyway. I listened to my Cool & Blue CD and also to some sound samples of the other releases and these are my conclusions. The Cool & Blue CD sounds good enough, but it seems probable that Mosaic was able to improve the sound compared to previous releases - they usually are. The Proper CD actually seems to be ripped from the Cool & Blue CD. The reason for this is: 1) It includes We The People Bop which is a live track from Royal Roost with a Woody Herman small group drawn from the Second Herd. It is on the Cool & Blue CD but not on any other releases. 2) It omits Chasin' The Bass just like the Cool & Blue CD. Is this a bass feature with no Chaloff solo possibly? 3) The sound on the 19th March 1949 session is worse than for the other studio session, just like on the Cool & Blue CD. The Jazz Factory CD however is very likely ripped from the Mosaic. The 19th March 1949 session sounds noticeably better, judging from the online samples, it includes Chasin' The Bass, and it lacks We The People Bop. This session is on the Oscar Pettiford CD too, so it could be taken from there, but the Andorrans have always ripped Mosaic sets before, so why not now? To sum it up I would say that the safest bet soundwise is to get the Jazz Factory CD. It's most likely ripped from the Mosaic set, unlike the other CDs. The only thing you will miss is the live track We The People Bop, but maybe you can live without it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyo Posted February 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2008 (edited) Thanks for the detailed impressions. I can live without that Woody Herman track, so I'll probably end up getting the Jazz Factory set. Along with their two Sonny Criss discs that's the third Jazz Factory album on my current wish list... Although I'll probably see what price the Chaloff Mosaic set fetches on eBay these days before I buy any of these three smaller compilations - if it's not too much, I might just end up getting that one and trying to hunt down a copy of that "Early Bebop on Keynote" CD that includes the Red Rodney session not included in the Mosaic. Edited February 10, 2008 by Kyo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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