Thoughts on the eBook reader

[GA Russell]

I saw the Sony eBook reader at BJ's two weeks ago, and I have been doing a little research.

You heard it here first! I predict that the eBook reader, especially the Amazon Kindle, will be the #1 Christmas present this year.

It's all pretty confusing, but my research indicates that both the Sony and the Kindle come with DRM which basically forces you to buy your books from them. Amazon will even charge you for public domain books because they cite their effort to run those books through their DRM!

Furthermore, Amazon claims that you are not buying the eBook, but only a license; and they reserve the right to limit the time you have to read the book before they discontinue your access to it!

I have found a German reader that looks very appealling to me called the txtr. It is open source with no DRM. No fee for public domain books. It will be released in October. No word yet on the price.

Just this past week Amazon has lowered the price of its Kindle 2 from $350 to $299, so I imagine that the txtr will be in that ballpark.

Have any of you purchased an eBook reader or looked into buying one? What are your thoughts?

[medjuck]

Amazon tells you how to send files to your kindle at no cost. (It does add one step.) It also offers many pd books for free.

[rockefeller center]

Absolutely not interested in Amazon's customer lock-in.

[Jazzmoose]

I still don't get the whole eBook thing. To me, this is the most useless product since the pet rock.

[funkogre]

Absolutely not interested in Amazon's customer lock-in.

Exactly. In fact, I will never pay money for downloadable material EVER, not ebooks, not audio books, not mp3s. I do download these materials from the local library which I think is GREAT because it's convenient and most importantly FREE, but paying money for what I consider to be lesser products, (no liner notes, no physical copy to protect yourself if your hard drive crashes, and NO resale value), is something I will not be tricked into by big business, (Amazon, Apple, etc.), into doing. Think about it, if we do away with physical books and CD's their price will be completely controlled by these big companies. You will no longer be able to go on Amazon and get a cheap used copy of a book or CD released a few months ago from a third party seller. I don't see the demise of physical products ever happening, (I think I read Amazon makes most of it's money from sales by it's third party sellers), but who knows...There's my conspiracy theory for the day.

Edited July 14, 2009 by funkogre

[GA Russell]

I still don't get the whole eBook thing. To me, this is the most useless product since the pet rock.

Moose, here's my thinking. I am primarily interested in older books now in the public domain. My books seem to always cost $15 plus fairly high shipping.

So I'm thinking that by downloading 15-20 free public domain books the reader will pay for itself, and I then get to read the classics for free.

I get the impression that all of the readers are like the iPod - the consumer cannot change the battery. You have to send it in with something like a hundred bucks, and they will send you a new one, with whatever was in your reader's memory lost and gone.

I have read complaints that the Kindle 2 does not have a slot for an SD card, which people use to store their books. Instead, when your Kindle's memory is full, you upload your books to Amazon's website, and trust them to keep your library for you. A lot of people don't like that idea.

I don't remember exactly what the Sony reader at BJ's cost - maybe $259 or maybe $239. I would expect Amazon's price to be the most expensive, so if they have the Kindle 2 pegged at $299, I would expect the txtr to come in lower than that.

[funkogre]

I still don't get the whole eBook thing. To me, this is the most useless product since the pet rock.

Moose, here's my thinking. I am primarily interested in older books now in the public domain. My books seem to always cost $15 plus fairly high shipping.

So I'm thinking that by downloading 15-20 free public domain books the reader will pay for itself, and I then get to read the classics for free.

I don't know if I understand that logic. How will downloading books you can get for free pay for anything? I don't know your situation, but if you're reading the classics why not just check them out from the library? Looks like Borders had the Sony PRS-505 ebook reader for $200 last month.

[GA Russell]

I don't know your situation, but if you're reading the classics why not just check them out from the library? Looks like Borders had the Sony PRS-505 ebook reader for $200 last month.

funkogre, I live in the country. The books I want to read are not found in the public library.

The Sony PRS-505 is the old model from 2007. I believe that what I saw at BJ's was the new PRS-700 model.

[seeline]

I have a Kindle 2 and love it - and in no way are you solely locked into purchases formatted in Amazon's AZW format. You can load - and read - a number of different file types, and there's plenty of good, entirely legal free content available from sites like manybooks.net and Amazon's Kindle store itself.

I'd strongly advise you to check out Mobileread.com (both main site and forum) for reviews, opinions and more. (On many different devices, not just Sony readers and the Kindle.)

I originally got the Kindle 2 for my elderly mom (who has some vision problems) but found the page turn buttons to be a bit too stiff for her, so I bought a new Kindle 1 for her and kept the K2 for myself. In some ways, I think Amazon rushed the K2 out o the gate (they eliminated a few really nice but non-essential features). Overall, though, it's one heck of a nifty device - I *never* thought I would like it, but they've got a lot of things nailed. It's not like reading a book, but once you get used to holding and using the K2, you more or less forget about that and just read. (Which is the whole point.)

while i agree about DRM being a bad thing, in reality, there are a lot of competing formats out there as well as some good free (and legal) software that makes it easy to convert from formats not currently supported to formats that work on the Kindle. (Which include HTML, txt and Mobileread's .mobi and .prc files. - Amazon bought Mobipocket a while back and patterned its own "azw" format on Mobi's software.)

The K2 is a godsend for anyone who does serious research - or wants to carry work-related documents on the reader, or... Although some things about it can (IMO) be improved, it's a great little device as is.

Edited July 15, 2009 by seeline

[seeline]

Absolutely not interested in Amazon's customer lock-in.

Amazon actually doesn't have a "lock in" on the device, any more than Apple has one on iPods. Check the link in my previous post for more info.

[GA Russell]

I have a Kindle 2 and love it - and in no way are you solely locked into purchases formatted in Amazon's AZW format. You can load - and read - a number of different file types, and there's plenty of good, entirely legal free content available from sites like manybooks.net and Amazon's Kindle store itself.

I'd strongly advise you to check out Mobileread.com (both main site and forum) for reviews, opinions and more. (On many different devices, not just Sony readers and the Kindle.)

Thanks for that link, clave! I'll study it for a while.

Let me ask you a basic question. Can you go to Project Gutenberg with your Kindle 2 and quickly download a book for free with no hassle?

[seeline]

Yes. But you'll need to learn a little more about which format to choose (most Gutenberg stuff is now available in several formats).

The important thing is: you can do lots of format conversions very easily on your own PC. There's absolutely no need to pay Amazon to do it for you, unless you're dealing with a big batch of files and would rather just pay them to convert them all. (I can imagine that convenience is a big factor for many people, so it makes sense that they offer this service.)

Other links or free/legal books (can be downloaded directly to Kindle if it's hooked up to your PC via its USB cable, and even directly, using wireless):

http://www.feedbooks.com/

http://manybooks.net/

http://www.munseys.com/

There are more, too.

Edited July 15, 2009 by seeline

[rockefeller center]

Absolutely not interested in Amazon's customer lock-in.

Amazon actually doesn't have a "lock in" on the device, any more than Apple has one on iPods.

Yeah, I won't touch the iPod either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_Kindle#Criticism

[rockefeller center]

The important thing is: you can do lots of format conversions very easily on your own PC. There's absolutely no need to pay Amazon to do it for you, unless you're dealing with a big batch of files and would rather just pay them to convert them all. (I can imagine that convenience is a big factor for many people, so it makes sense that they offer this service.)

How is it more convenient to upload multiple files to an Amazon server than to select those files and have them transferred/converted locally?

Kindle 2 review on amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/review/RV0R3AODMRNJZ...odeID=370783011

If I ever should buy an e-book reader it will be one that's manufactured by a company that's not closely tied to an online retailer and supports a couple of file formats like html, pdf, odf, png, jpeg natively.

[GA Russell]

If I ever should buy an e-book reader it will be one that's manufactured by a company that's not closely tied to an online retailer and supports a couple of file formats like html, pdf, odf, png, jpeg natively.

RC, I'm feeling the same way. That's why I'm leaning toward the txtr.

[seeline]

Look - the Kindle does support HTML and text (also JPG) natively.

I'm not intending to be a shill for Amazon; there are a lot of things I hate about the company. All I'm trying to say is that the K2 is (in my opinion) a surprisingly good product. If I had the $$$ to buy a bunch of ebook readers and compare them, I'd go for it. But I don't, and I did choose the Kindle based on some things (like highly adjustable font size) that work well for someone with low vision (my elderly mom).

I think some of you are deliberately overlooking what I've said in earlier posts. The K2 is anything but perfect. And no, the K2 doesn't have native PDF support; also, Amazon's own conversion of PDFs is (IMO) pretty terrible.

But you can do you own conversion with the entirely free Mobipocket Creator (Pro Edition) software. amazon doesn't tell people about that (even though they own it!), but a little looking at places like Mobileread.com will turn it up.

I'm *not* a fan of DRM, but there are already a *lot* of DRMd ebook formats out there - not developed by Amazon. They're very late to the game, actually.

The new large Kindle DX is supposed to have native PDF support, though from what I've seen, the jury's still out on how well (or poorly) it works.

Maybe I'm being naive, but it seems to me that some of the posters in this thread already have their minds made up about things they really haven't investigated.

[sigh] I guess that's one of the pitfalls of online "communication." It's a frustrating thing, for sure.

GA, I hope you're able to find a good ebook reader that has what you want, and that works for you!

Edited to add: Some people might find it *convenient* to send a batch of files to Amazon to convert. There are actualy 2 available optionst: the one they talk about more *does* cost some money (although it was free for almost 2 years); the other is entirely free. The exact same software is used; the free version doesn't automatically download converted files to the Kindle via wireless. I've tried the 2nd one many times, with highly variable results, which is why I use the Mobipocket Pro software to do conversions on my own. (it works better, and much more consistently, than amazon's doc conversion stuff.)

Nobody has to use Amazon's "service" - there's nothing written in stone about that.

Edit edit: There's good freeware - legal freeware - available for converting Sony's DRMd format to other formats; ditto for Microsoft's LIT format. You can use it to convert files you already own so that they can be uploaded to a number of different ereaders, including the Kindle.

Edited July 15, 2009 by seeline

[seeline]

For a brief guide to Kindle features that might not appear in the Amazon boilerplate, try http://www.kindlecookbook.com/

There are a lot of people out there who've hacked the Kindle (all versions) in entirely legal ways - you know, taking it apart (both physically and via installed software) to see how it works. Based on that, there are some nice custom modifications that are very easy to do. an example: I don't like the K2's native font, so I installed another one. *Very* easy; no computer expertise required.

It's a far more versatile device than many people realize.

Edited July 15, 2009 by seeline

[medjuck]

I would never have bought a Kindle but I was given one. I like it a lot. Especially because I'm traveling right now. Not only do I have several books on it but I have a bunch of scripts I have to read. Saves me about 30 pounds. I agree with the technical points in the above 2 postings (though I don't reallY understand them). However I still think they're too expensive.

[seeline]

I know what you mean about the weight! I've got lots of my books (things I would rather not drag around with me; my last move cost $$$ because of my library) as digital files now. and I find myself taking my Kindle everywhere, because it's small and very convenient to carry. (I've got a *lot* of books on it, too though it's important to back up your files on another hard drive...)

Like I said earlier, I never expected to like this thing. I would probably be just as content with another kind of ebook reader, and might try to invest in something else (preferably with a flexible screen) in the future. But there are a lot of advantages to the Kindle setup and wireless content delivery - although I seldom get things from Amazon itself. I love the fact that I can put my own work on it and have it handy, too... but mainly, I just use it as a reader.

BTW, the price on the Kindle 2 has dropped a bit (for new ones) - it's now a shade under 300 USD. My personal feeling is that they're going to *really* start selling these things if/when they drop the price to around 250 USD.

medjuck, my last couple of posts were mainly about file formats. No worries here!

Edited to add: One really good thing about amazon's entry into the digital book market is that they've been able to get publishers to significantly lower prices for most ebooks. Until recently, new electronic editions of books were released at hardcover prices (and if you're buying from many ebook stores - Sony format, for example - that's still the case). Amazon's basic price point is 9.99 USD, with many older in-print books being made available for 7 USD and under. I think other vendors are going to follow this trend.

I think I'll always love actual, physical books and prefer them to ebooks. But now that I can own physical copies of the things I really want to have in that format, while having other books available as digital files. That's very freeing, especially as I'm dealing with space (and weight) constraints for my library. And when I go away, I'm not dragging a whole stack of books with me, which is great!

Edited July 15, 2009 by seeline

[GA Russell]

clave, many thanks for your input. Your posts have been just what I was asking for when I started the thread.

It appears to me that both Amazon and Sony want to keep you on the hook. It is good to know that you don't have to remain an Amazon customer after you purchase the Kindle, but it appears to me that Amazon offers no support in that regard, apparently only explaining how to use the Kindle with Amazon.

At this point I'm reluctant to spend $300 on an item that I then need to figure out on my own how to use. If the price were $100, I probably would have a different attitude.

With that link you provided last night, I found a list of YouTube videos showing the txtr at some book fairs in Germany in the spring. Pretty impressive, although I think I would prefer a larger screen, maybe like the Kindle DX.

However, I think that the lack of an SD slot for the Kindle 2 and DX is going to be a deal killer for me and maybe a lot of people.

One thing we haven't mentioned is that I strongly suspect that Amazon will offer the largest selection of copyrighted books. That may be important to many people.

However, this idea that with their DRMs Amazon and Sony have the ability to limit the amount of time you license your book for is troubling to me. I don't think that that is something I would want to pay for in the future. I suspect that a lot of people will be turned off by that. Again, the price is an issue. If they let you read a book for a month for only a dollar, I think that a lot of people would go along with it.

[seeline]

Oh, I agree completely on the lack of an SD card slot on the K2 and lots more. (User-replaceable battery, anyone?! Killing that was a bad move.)

I also like what I'm seeing of the txtr.

As for a subscription/loan-based store model, again, agreed! I think that if they decide to do that (in addition to "permanent" purchases), that's going to kick the door wide open.

I hope they do it, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

Edited to add: I think people are going to keep hacking the Kindle hardware and software and publishing information about it... which means that it's going to become increasingly difficult for them to keep customers "on the hook." (From my pov, at least. A lot of people who post in the Mobileread forums seems to be way ahead of all the techies at both Sony and Amazon.)

Edited July 15, 2009 by seeline

[rockefeller center]

Look - the Kindle does support HTML [snip] natively.

Wrong.

From the Amazon product page:

Content Formats Supported: Kindle (AZW), TXT, Audible (formats 4, Audible Enhanced (AAX)), MP3, unprotected MOBI, PRC natively; PDF, HTML, DOC, JPEG, GIF, PNG, BMP through conversion.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00154JDAI

Conversion != native support. OK?

Screw the Kindles.

[rockefeller center]

Edited to add: I think people are going to keep hacking the Kindle hardware and software and publishing information about it... which means that it's going to become increasingly difficult for them to keep customers "on the hook." (From my pov, at least. A lot of people who post in the Mobileread forums seems to be way ahead of all the techies at both Sony and Amazon.)

It's beyond me why someone wants to support a platform that wants to "keep the customers on the hook" in the first place. Well, nevermind...

[seeline]

Some people *are* able to use the Kindle for HTML, though... I'm not exactly sure how, and it might be that it's the case with only 1 model. (i.e., K2 vs. K1.) it could be via a simple hack (that I'd never be able to explain, though I might be able to follow someone'd plain English directions and actually make it work. )

Check the Mobileread.com forums if you're interested.

[rockefeller center]

Some people *are* able to use the Kindle for HTML, though... I'm not exactly sure how, and it might be that it's the case with only 1 model. (i.e., K2 vs. K1.) it could be via a simple hack (that I'd never be able to explain, though I might be able to follow someone'd plain English directions and actually make it work. )

Check the Mobileread.com forums if you're interested.

I was talking about the lack of native html support to which you replied that the Kindle does support html natively - which is not the case. So, obviously you don't really know what you're talking about. As I stated before: I'm not interested in this proprietary control freak bullshit platform which Kindle is.

So, enjoy your Kindle and if it's doing the stuff you want: perfect!

Edited July 15, 2009 by rockefeller center