seeline Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 (edited) Look, this is kind of pointless (ongoing discussion), but apparently HTML *does* work on the Kindle, for some people, at least. Check MobileRead for more. No sense arguing about it, IMO. OK? (There *is* a simple hack that makes PDFs work natively on both the K1 and K2 without any need for conversion software, btw...) Edited July 15, 2009 by seeline Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeline Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 For GA (and anyone else who's interested): I'm really intrigued by the forthcoming Plastic Logic reader. (check here for some links to trade show videos.) It's going to have a flexible screen, among other things... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzmoose Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 http://consumerist.com/5317209/amazon-dele...r-with-eastasia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeline Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 (edited) yeah, that's bad, no question. I bet Amazon is regretting this already. (at least, I hope they are.) Although the part about the ebook publisher not having secured the rights to those books is equally questionable/stupid. Just in case it's unclear, the books in question are under copyright in the US (but not in Canada, the UK, or Australia). the ebook publisher, MobileReference, had not secured the rights for either book for US distribution. This kind of confirms my suspicion that there's actually a lot of "grey market" material out there, though I think it's equally foolish for these books to *not* be in the public domain in the US. Still, if you're planning to sell something, it's best to get the rights/permissions/legal red tape out of the way before doing so - for which I fault MobileReference. (There's been ongoing debate at MobileRead and elsewhere about this company for some time, fwiw. I've avoided getting anything put out by them due to multiple issues - bad formatting and more.) Edited July 18, 2009 by seeline Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GA Russell Posted July 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 Here's what PCWorld says about it today: http://www.pcworld.com/article/168654/amaz..._ownership.html The link to The Consumerist which Moose provided now has a number of comments which are worth reading. One states the agreement which the Kindle customer must accept in order to download the eBook: Upon your payment of the applicable fees set by Amazon, Amazon grants you the non-exclusive right to keep a permanent copy of the applicable Digital Content and to view, use, and display such Digital Content an unlimited number of times... So not only does Amazon's removing the books from the Kindles without the owners' knowledge offend the sensibilities, it also violates their own contract provisions! I see a lawsuit coming. I wonder if Amazon would have been physically able to do this if the eBooks were kept on an SD card like other readers have. I think that their ability to do it was based upon the Kindle's wireless capability. Perhaps if the reader had no wireless connection, and had to be hooked up to the computer's USB port, then the eBooks would be safe from confiscation. You computer mavens would understand all this better than I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeline Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 (edited) I'm sure there will be a lawsuit. And yes, the books were wiped via wireless, when customers hooked up to Amazon to resynch their Kindles. But really, there's much more to this - like Amazon's obvious need to make sure they're selling legal ebooks! That's probably the biggest mistake here, IMO. (And a very stupid one on their part, too.) Which all makes me realize that I need to back up some purchases to my HD... Edited July 18, 2009 by seeline Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockefeller center Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 Well, big surprise! LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeline Posted July 19, 2009 Report Share Posted July 19, 2009 (edited) Yeah, well - all of about 3 books that I've bought from Amazon. Don't laugh *too* hard. As I've mentioned before, there are plenty of other sources for ebooks, both free and for pay. I mainly use those. (Just like i don't buy things from iTunes, because I don't like a lot of things about the store and so forth.) Edited July 19, 2009 by seeline Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GA Russell Posted July 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 As I understand it, Amazon would not have the ability to remove books from Kindles on a massive scale if it were not for the DRM. True? Yet as long as there is this wireless set up, I don't think that anything can physically stop them from deleting material from Kindles one by one. True? So the more I think about it, it seems to me that the way to go with the wireless set up is book rental, kind of like DVD rentals. I mentioned the other day that one might rent a book for a month for a dollar. I don't realistically think that Amazon would price a book not in the public domain that low. But maybe two dollars per month would work. Three dollars for a best seller. Many non-fiction best sellers are ephemeral, like those by political pundits like Ann Coulter and Bill O'Reilly. You can read them in a weekend without much effort, and pretty much never go back to them again. And I think that there are a lot of people who would pay a quick three dollars for that sort of thing rather than plunk down the $18 best sellers are often discounted at, or wait for weeks for your turn to come up for the library's copy. So as long as the eBook readers have blue tooth and other wireless capability, I see rentals as the way to go. Personally, I would prefer to own a reader without wireless capability, but I haven't found such a book in my internet search yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockefeller center Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 Personally, I would prefer to own a reader without wireless capability, but I haven't found such a book in my internet search yet. Why? If you don't want your device to be in a wireless network simply don't connect to one. I don't believe that the Kindle is set up to crack WPA2 keys to gain network access against your will... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GA Russell Posted July 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 RC, I don't have a clue as to how the Kindle works! But I have to believe (wild speculation here) that there were many people who did not know that Amazon had the physical ability to delete what was on their Kindle, let alone actually do it without warning and approval. Suppose I download a public domain book from Project Gutenberg. Would Amazon have the physical ability to delete that as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeline Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 (edited) As I understand it, Amazon would not have the ability to remove books from Kindles on a massive scale if it were not for the DRM. True? Yet as long as there is this wireless set up, I don't think that anything can physically stop them from deleting material from Kindles one by one. True? So the more I think about it, it seems to me that the way to go with the wireless set up is book rental, kind of like DVD rentals. I mentioned the other day that one might rent a book for a month for a dollar. I don't realistically think that Amazon would price a book not in the public domain that low. But maybe two dollars per month would work. Three dollars for a best seller. Many non-fiction best sellers are ephemeral, like those by political pundits like Ann Coulter and Bill O'Reilly. You can read them in a weekend without much effort, and pretty much never go back to them again. And I think that there are a lot of people who would pay a quick three dollars for that sort of thing rather than plunk down the $18 best sellers are often discounted at, or wait for weeks for your turn to come up for the library's copy. So as long as the eBook readers have blue tooth and other wireless capability, I see rentals as the way to go. Personally, I would prefer to own a reader without wireless capability, but I haven't found such a book in my internet search yet. I doubt the books in question were DRM'd, although they probably were in the AZW file format used by amazon. They were deleted when people turned on the device's wireless and then synched their devices (hooking up directly to their Amazon accounts). *if* these folks had copied these books from their Kindles to another HD, they would then have been able to transfer them back to the device and continue reading (though any bookmarks, highlights and notes would likely have been lost in the process). DRM has nothing to do with the illegality of these books or why Amazon.com removed them The ebook publisher, MobileReference, did not pay licensing fees (etc.) to the US copyright holders of the material in question. It's a *copyright* issue before it's anything else.... Amazon needs to be far more careful about what they sell in their Kindle store re. legality. (In this case, "sell" also refers to books that are free - their setup defaults to $0.00 as a "purchase price.") The actual books in question are in the public domain in the UK, Canada and Australia. (Don't know about the Republic of Ireland.) At any rate, the short answer is: wireless synching is how the files were removed. I seldom use the built-in wireless, because I prefer to buy/download legally from other sources and then transfer files to the device via the USB cable that comes with it. (Though I do have a number of free titles from Amazon, as well as several purchases, sitting on my K2's hard drive - all downloaded directly.) Suppose I download a public domain book from Project Gutenberg. Would Amazon have the physical ability to delete that as well? Absolutely not. You didn't get it from them. (Though I should add that the device's logs can be "seen" by techs there, if they decide to pull them during a synch - so I guess it *might* be possible, though likely very illegal!) Edited July 20, 2009 by seeline Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GA Russell Posted July 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 I doubt the books in question were DRM'd, although they probably were in the AZW file format used by amazon. Suppose I download a public domain book from Project Gutenberg. Would Amazon have the physical ability to delete that as well? Absolutely not. You didn't get it from them. (Though I should add that the device's logs can be "seen" by techs there, if they decide to pull them during a synch - so I guess it *might* be possible, though likely very illegal!) Thanks for your informative response, clave. I want to point out a couple of things, however. 1) One idea that I picked up from my reading is that AZW is a DRM program. In the case of the Kindle, I've been using the two terms interchangeably. Am I wrong? 2) I gather that you think that Amazon wouldn't do it even if they could because it would be "very illegal". But that's my point. I bet there are a lot of lawyers who think that what they did in deleting the two Orwell titles was very illegal, and they're going to file lawsuits about it, I expect. The whole issue now, it seems to me, is that Amazon cannot be trusted by its customers. So I would like to know what they have the physical ability to do. I read on another board that in order to buy an eBook from Amazon, one must use the wireless function on one's Kindle. So if some goober at Amazon doesn't like what's on your Kindle, he can see it and delete it. So then one must backup everything onto a hard drive before every trip to the Amazon eBook store. Am I wrong? By the way, I am under the impression that the Sony folks could do the same thing, but I am not so confident about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeline Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 (edited) I read on another board that in order to buy an eBook from Amazon, one must use the wireless function on one's Kindle. So if some goober at Amazon doesn't like what's on your Kindle, he can see it and delete it. So then one must backup everything onto a hard drive before every trip to the Amazon eBook store. Am I wrong? You can actually buy and read Kindle-formatted books from the Kindle store without owning a Kindle, so long as you've got something like the official Kindle app installed on an iPhone. AZW does *not* necessarily = DRM. DRM is something that Amazon is doing (adding) to the files on which it has exclusive distribution and sale rights. You can use software (free and legal) and create your own AZW files that aren't DRM'd, just as you can use iTunes to create (rip and encode) digital copies of your own CDs in a number of file formats - including formats exclusive to Apple. The difference is that anything you rip yourself is not DRM'd. (Nor are all files sold via the iTunes store DRM'd, for that matter - that changed some time ago.) You might want to take a look at the Kindle Myths and Partial Truths page from Mobileread.com's Wiki. Should answer most of your questions - it's written in very straightforward, non-technical language, too. Hope that's helpful to you, GA! (BTW, I guess I should ask Jim about changing my username here to the one you're familiar with from AAJ... ) Edited to add: MobileReference has thousands of titles for sale, and it looks like Amazon is doing distribution for them in the AZW format. The thing is, they need to check and make sure that all these 3d-party files are legal in the US - which they clearly haven't been doing. The $0.99 price point is more about the file's supposedly being formatted for the Kindle (with a hyperlinked table of contents, in the AZW format) than anything else. A lot of people are uploading Project Gutenberg material to the Kindle Store and either offering it for free or at a very low price. A lot of those files are very poorly formatted - if they contain any formatting at all, other than the most basic. I've gotten some free public domain titles via the Kindle Store that were literally unreadable, filled with "junk" characters and the like. That's one of the reasons that I prefer to do my own conversions, on my desktop. (With the free pro version of the Mobipocket book creator software - amazon's AZW file format is almost identical to the one created by Mobipocket - a European ebook company which is now owned by Amazon.) - Also, not everything that's hosted by a given Project Gutenberg portal is *legal* (i.e., free of copyright restrictions) in all countries. They're very careful to say so upfront. So you can, for example, go to the PG Australia site and download all of Orwell's books, since they are all in the public domain in Australia. But you need to keep in mind that some theoretical Big Brother type *could* potentially bust you for owning a free copy of 1984, which is still under copyright here in the US. I have *no* explanations as to why copyright laws are so screwy (variable), and so screwed up. They just are! And one more once: the Orwell titles in question were not legally cleared for sale in the US by their publisher, MobileReference. That makes both Amazon and MobileReference liable for their illegal sale and distribution in the US via Amazon's Kindle store. MobileReference might just be able to settle this out of court by paying all licensing fees and permissions and resubmitting those files to Amazon. It's not about the method of delivery, it's about the legality of the files themselves. And - since this is all pretty new technology (etc.) - I suspect there'll be more mess-ups of this kind, at both Amazon and at other ebook vendors. Edited July 21, 2009 by seeline Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeline Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 (edited) Here's 'the section of the Kindle Myths and Partial Truths page (full version at this link ) that addresses the concerns re. "You can't buy a book from the Kindle store unless you have a Kindle" (or some variation on that wording): Myth: Without Whispernet you can't buy books. Truth: As long as you have access to a computer, you can purchase and download books. The Kindle will be recognized as a mass storage device by your Windows, Mac or Linux computer, so you just need to attach the USB cable (it's included with your Kindle) and transfer the books to the "documents" folder. Whole Truth: There have been some reported incidents (via the Amazon forums) of sometimes not being able to download content from Amazon while out of the U.S. (even if the person is a U.S. resident on vacation). It doesn't seem to be a widespread problem but it does happen from time to time. Without Whispernet you will lose access to the Kindle's wireless features: * Wireless downloads from the Amazon Kindle store and document conversion service downloads directly to your Kindle (however, you can have conversions emailed back to you) * The Kindle browser * Wikipedia access * Book sample downloads (a workaround is to get the samples from MobiPocket.com via your computer, where available) Edited July 21, 2009 by seeline Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brownian Motion Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 Amazon and its handling of the Kindle is turning into a public relations nightmare. Only when threatened with a class action law suit did Amazon take responsibility for a basic design flaw. http://blogs.zdnet.com/gadgetreviews/?p=5982&tag=nl.e550 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul secor Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 Glad I just like to read old fashioned books and don't have to worry about the compatibility of formats, books being deleted, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeline Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 I hear you, paul, although it's really not anywhere near as bad as it sounds. My guess is that e-reading devices will be very much an accepted part of the landscape in 3-5 years' time. it's a bit odd, being a relatively early adopter, since I've never been in this position before. There are a *lot* of good things about the technology, and I'm very much looking forward to further refinements. (While still loving books printed on paper. ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeline Posted July 22, 2009 Report Share Posted July 22, 2009 (edited) Barnes & Noble to sell its own e-reader in partnership with Plastic Logic. Should be interesting, especially since they're going to open it up to many more file formats. No doubt Amazon is going to need to follow suit. (Especially since people will be able to walk right into a B&N store and buy a device.) Edited July 22, 2009 by seeline Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GA Russell Posted July 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2009 (Especially since people will be able to walk right into a B&N store and buy a device.) Considering that this is a new device/concept/invention/whatever, I imagine that there are many people who would prefer to buy what they have held in their hands in a store rather than mail order an unknown from Amazon or anyone else. Clave, I see that the Plastic Logic is the size of notebook paper, which I guess is similar to the Kindle DX. I think that that would appeal to me more than the Kindle 2 or the txtr, which seem small. I saw the other day a photo of a Kindle 2 side by side with a DX. The screen of the 2 seemed to be smaller than a page of an old mass market paperback book, i.e., the Pocket Books or Bantam series. I don't think I would enjoy turning the page every long paragraph and a half. Clave, has the screen of your Kindle seemed small to you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeline Posted July 23, 2009 Report Share Posted July 23, 2009 (edited) The K2 isn't as small as you're thinking - there are videos on Amazon.com (and elsewhere) that you can check out. Personally, I wouldn't want a DX - too awkward, and the screen is breakable. I think that's where Plastic Logic has the potential to beat them at this game, because they're going to be selling devices that are not only flexible, but have touch-screen technology. The keyboards on both the K1 and K2 are awkward, and I'm glad I don't need to use them very often. I do hope that companies concentrate on making e-reading hardware rather than focusing on some sort of conglomerate web browser/reader/etc. - but that's probably not realistic. It seems as if many people love "all in one" devices, and the current Kindles have web browsing capabilities built in, but that's so limited as to be (IMO) pretty well useless. Agreed completely on buying a device that you can see and try out for yourself, as opposed to something you can only "see" in pics and videos. Edited July 23, 2009 by seeline Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funkogre Posted August 3, 2009 Report Share Posted August 3, 2009 Oh fun! It looks like Amazon is going to put ads on Kindle ebooks. Woohoo! Where's my credit card? I don't care if it costs $299, I have to have one now. I usually take my copy of The Great Gatsby to the mall and read it while I'm shopping but this will be so much more convenient! I just hope they don't delete the illegal copies of 1984 I buy from them, along with my notes, before I can click on their ads to support this wonderful company! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GA Russell Posted August 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 Nice find, funkogre! I wonder why they would need or want a patent to place ads within the text of a book. My guess is that they plan to change the ads periodically (like maybe every day!), so that maybe your purchase is not static. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GA Russell Posted August 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 Here is a matrix comparing all of the eBook readers out now or soon to be released. http://wiki.mobileread.com/wiki/E-book_Reader_Matrix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul secor Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 Article on the Kindle 2 and e-Books in the New Yorker: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/08...act_baker?yrail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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