Classical FLAC and mp3 technical question

[David Ayers]

I once tried buying classical downloads from Chandos but gave up when I couldn't get proper technical support on seamlessly playing and burning tracks which needed to play continuously. I am considering trying again with the newly relaunched DG site, but, once again, I wrote to them and asked for technical advice and got brushed off. I know that itunes will play mp3s seamlessly, I never found a free mp3 player that would burn seamlessly, and more to the point I am unaware of any FLAC player that will burn seamlessly. Anyone solved this problem? Am I seeing it wrong?

Edited June 13, 2010 by David Ayers

[A Lark Ascending]

The whole issue of 'gapless' strikes me as a glaring 'glitch' that I'm surpised Chandos (and other) have not dealt with yet. I've never used FLAC - I'm generally quite happy with mp3, sometimes go for the slighly more expensive lossless though I'm not sure I hear the difference.

As a rule I find that Winamp will burn gaplessly (I think I had to do something a couple of years back, but can't recall what). But Winamp won't take the lossless ones so almost certainly not FLAC...not without some tweaking that I'm unaware of.

In iTunes Chandos recommend that you import as 'Apple Lossless Encoder'. This page is useful: http://www.chandos.net/HelpiTunes.asp

I find you also have to set 'burn' to 'gapless' and, when buring each album, highlight the tracks, go to 'Get Info' and the fourth 'Options' tab and change 'Gapless' to 'Yes'.

Works most of the time...though not always!

Be careful trying other burning systems. I experimented with a few and totally confused Winamp and iTunes - too many things reading off the CD burner, I suspect.

I had some problems in iTunes with Hyperion downloads a while back - for some reason they burn seamlessly in Winamp.

If downloading is going to become the wave of the future...and it's my preferred option...they need to get this simplified and sorted. I suspect a system that began as a way of getting individual songs has been slow to realise the problems of downloading a continuous, multipart piece like an opera.

Edited June 13, 2010 by Bev Stapleton

[David Ayers]

Thanks Bev. I was afraid you'd say something like that. The two problems I have run into with software that requires you to select and highlight tracks are first that you need to know which tracks should play seamlessly and second that usually you have to select all tracks to play seamlessly (as if for a Ministry of Sound DJ style mix). It's quiet obvious why this won't work for classical. I guess the fact that Chandos and DG brushed me off, and that fact that the documentation pages of any player I know don't explicitly address these issues mean, as you are saying, that no-one has resolved them. Of course, file-sharers solve the problem by using cue files. Why companies like Chandos and DG won't take the question seriously I don't know. Same goes for Spotify which, in effect,like these DG and Chandos downloads, doesn't work. Who wants to pay for something that won't work?

Edited June 13, 2010 by David Ayers

[A Lark Ascending]

This is one of a number of issues that currently bedevils downloading. The other two that irritate me are:

a) Where albums are faulty there is no way of knowing when they have been corrected. You always get your money back but I'd like to know when it's safe to download again! I think we can all appreciate that errors will happen - it would just help if the company flagged up a 'Currently being repaired' sign and a 'Repairs completed: now perfect' sign. I think this is a bit like early CD days when anything and everything was transferred with minimal care. I suspect we will have a new generation of 'Remastered Downloads' to entice us in a few year (iTunes are already trying to get me to upgrade tracks bought in a lower format at 10p a shot!).

b) In the online stores, the utter confusion caused by endless cheap out-of-copyright versions. Wading through Amazon_mp3s new releases pages is no fun as there is so much brick-a-brack. Rscord shops used to have cheapo labels in a separate area. I wish they'd give some thought to the presentation of the recording they have available.

However, a good story. A few weeks back I downloaded an album of David Matthews string quartets from a small label called Toccata. A complete mess - for some reason Winamp/iTunes were reading some of the tracks as being ten times their actual length. So of course I got a 'will not fit on disc' response. E-mailing the company I immediately got a very friendly response - there was clearly a big problem with encoding which took a week to resolve. But in the end they got it right and were determined to.

I don't mind these blips - it's a new technology - as long as someone is paying attention and correcting the errors.

[sonnymax]

If you wish to burn a CD, why rely on a download service or a media player to give what you want? There are several CD burning software programs available that require little space on your computer, offer you the control and options you want, and best of all, are free. Check out http://download.cnet.com, choose PC or Mac, then click on MP3 & Audio Software and then CD Burners. There you can get an idea of what's out there and what the editors and/or customers think.

[David Ayers]

If you wish to burn a CD, why rely on a download service or a media player to give what you want? There are several CD burning software programs available that require little space on your computer, offer you the control and options you want, and best of all, are free. Check out http://download.cnet.com, choose PC or Mac, then click on MP3 & Audio Software and then CD Burners. There you can get an idea of what's out there and what the editors and/or customers think.

Ah well my point is that I've looked but I can't find one that solves the problem, and the classical companies can't point me at one. I was asking here whether anybody has *actually* solved it. Of course there are more players than I have tried, but my strong sense is this:

(1) there is no CD burner that will automatically and seamlessly combine the (needlessly) separate tracks of continuous works on mp3;

(2) there is no burner that will do the same for FLAC, and there is no player, even, that will do so for playback let alone for burning

I know that I could continue looking at still other players, but at this point I am just asking around. If anyone knows a particular player that they have used to solve this problem please tell me!

[mjzee]

I have a Mac, and use a program called Amadeus Pro. It can handle FLAC files, and there's an option called Join Files. It will join whichever files you want into one file, and you could then convert that file into .mp3 (and then burn to disc...it will also convert the FLAC file into AIFF). I agree that the classical companies should be doing the work and not you, but nonetheless it would seem to be a solution.

[David Ayers]

Ah sadly Amadeus Pro is Mac only. But I should probably add to what I said before by explaining that file joining, which I have tried, does not give seamless reproduction, but leaves a blip. In fact iTunes is unusual among players I have tried in that it actually joins files in playback musically, not mechanically, though strangely it can't cope with burning (last time I tried) and, obviously, doesn't play FLACs. Hm...

[David Ayers]

Sigh. I've concluded that buying classical downloads is too hard work. If file-sharers have achieved perfect results for years using ape + cue why can't these companies do the same, I wonder. I was trying to order some FLACs from DG who have an offer FLACS-for-same-cost-as-mp3s. The offer expires today. The website shows the prices of FLACs as indeed the same as mp3s, but when you add them to your basket the prices are different (in one case I tried, the same). If the quality isn't there, the interface doesn't work and the customer support is inadequate, what is the point? And that's their re-vamped re-launched website.

I'm considering too Bev's idea that this is 'new' technology and we must wait for it to come right. I'm taking the opposite view. Since mp3s have been around since the mid 90s, the technology (of the digitsl sound file) might well be half way through its life (as hard as this may be to imagine). The technology does exist to achieve the results I want but no commercial company is interested in using it. I suppose my conclusion is that recorded music as such is a declining market and that there is not enough money in it to drive product development. So commercial sites like Chandos and DG only work on the cheap and really won't ever be worth the investment it would take to put the technology where it needs to be and provide real customer support.

Edited June 13, 2010 by David Ayers

[Dave James]

David,

Have you tried Pristine Classical? http://www.pristineclassical.com/

[king ubu]

Burrrn can handle a variety of files (including WAV, FLAC, MP3, MP4, OGG... also playlists such as m3u, and cue-files as well).

It never creates these annoying gaps in between tracks, and it's small and easy to handle.

[mjzee]

Ah sadly Amadeus Pro is Mac only. But I should probably add to what I said before by explaining that file joining, which I have tried, does not give seamless reproduction, but leaves a blip. In fact iTunes is unusual among players I have tried in that it actually joins files in playback musically, not mechanically, though strangely it can't cope with burning (last time I tried) and, obviously, doesn't play FLACs. Hm...

I've never heard a blip when I've joined files using Amadeus Pro.

[David Ayers]

Thanks for those answers guys.

ave you tried Pristine Classical? http://www.pristineclassical.com/

I just took a look but can't find guidance on this issue. Of course the nusic files they offer can be most interesting.

Burrrn can handle a variety of files (including WAV, FLAC, MP3, MP4, OGG... also playlists such as m3u, and cue-files as well).

It never creates these annoying gaps in between tracks, and it's small and easy to handle.

Yes I know and use Burrrn. It's very good with ape + cue! Also very good with seprate FLACs. It couldn't handle my mp3 joining issues though.

I've never heard a blip when I've joined files using Amadeus Pro.

Well the files I joined using a similar method did blip. Maybe it depends how perfectly 'cut' the files you are using are? However just the existence of Amadeus Pro hints that a Windows program may exist that does the same. Of course I can keep trying but... why pay then still have all the work to do, and why buy new things to try with that might or might not work? Apart from anything else I don't have time to keep burning copies and then trying them to see if they work. Here's my dilemma. Poor me, eh?

[king ubu]

Sorry, I didn't read this closely enough it seems - so you want to merge various FLAC files into ONE track? The only way I know how to do that is to convert to WAV (I use TLH), then open them in some music editing programme (I have Cool Edit - not free, I'm afraid) and save the new WAV.

Maybe there's some software that can join WAVs automatically, but I don't know.

Then, if there are GAPS in the actual files: EAC is able to remove them (at the beginning and at the end of tracks) automatically.

After doing any such operation though, you need to make sure SBE are fixed (using TLH).

So, in short: each album you create will need custom treatment... that's not the reply you were hoping for, I'm sure!

Otherwise if you're happy with MP3 I'd recommend you just hook up the ipod to your hifi set (same way you'd hook up a discman or record player or whatever, just use any of the free "channels") and listen that way. But as you said: that won't work for FLAC!

[David Ayers]

Sorry, I didn't read this closely enough it seems - so you want to merge various FLAC files into ONE track? The only way I know how to do that is to convert to WAV (I use TLH), then open them in some music editing programme (I have Cool Edit - not free, I'm afraid) and save the new WAV.

Maybe there's some software that can join WAVs automatically, but I don't know.

Then, if there are GAPS in the actual files: EAC is able to remove them (at the beginning and at the end of tracks) automatically.

After doing any such operation though, you need to make sure SBE are fixed (using TLH).

So, in short: each album you create will need custom treatment... that's not the reply you were hoping for, I'm sure!

Otherwise if you're happy with MP3 I'd recommend you just hook up the ipod to your hifi set (same way you'd hook up a discman or record player or whatever, just use any of the free "channels") and listen that way. But as you said: that won't work for FLAC!

Ah! Yes, thanks for that answer. That's more-or-less the conclusion I was coming to. I mean, I didn't know how to actually edit the files back together which you have outlined there, but in principle that was what I was thinking. I didn't know what SBE was but now I know, and that is the whole of my problem.

I'm not 'happy' with mp3s on my hi-fi, they just don't stack up, but they are fine within the limitations of my PC, and I don't use an ipod. So my conclusion has become to stick to commercial mp3 where I just want to hear a work and the hi-fi experience is not an issue, and avoid commercial FLAC's except where I know for sure there are no continuous play issues. That said, a lot of the things I am interested in have such issues - it's a pity. In an absolute emergency though I might well try out your method!

[king ubu]

David, SBE's are not those 2-second gaps (those mostly were created, I assume, by a moronic though I assume well-meaning IT programmer, who was responsible the annoying thing that is Nero - they still seem to have almost a monopol as far as burning software is concerned).

Those SBE's are just split-seconds, you'd not notice them mostly, but they might create some clicks around the track marks if you play the tracks on a computer. TLH can actually fix those by moving the mark to a sector boundary (again, that is within confines that it will not move the mark to a wrong [late/early] place, it's just split seconds).

This is all rather complicating... I like FLAC a lot, but as I'm not doing any official downloading (I'm still a CD person as far as officially released music goes), I've never ran into those problems you have!

[David Ayers]

Oh yes I know that SBEs are not the same as the two second gap introduced when burning with WMP or other players. But they can be quite audible and may be aggravated if the split between two abutting sections do not marry perfectly.

In the context of commercial classical sales they are quite unncessary since (1) no-one would ever want to buy only selected tracks of a continuously playing work and (2) all they do is replicate the CD index points which are a method of finding certain passages, so it ends up with the original CD index points creating a huge technical problem for no reason whatever. Boo hoo.

[king ubu]

Oh yes I know that SBEs are not the same as the two second gap introduced when burning with WMP or other players. But they can be quite audible and may be aggravated if the split between two abutting sections do not marry perfectly.

In the context of commercial classical sales they are quite unncessary since (1) no-one would ever want to buy only selected tracks of a continuously playing work and (2) all they do is replicate the CD index points which are a method of finding certain passages, so it ends up with the original CD index points creating a huge technical problem for no reason whatever. Boo hoo.

I've never understood that concept about index points... never even had a player capable of finding them.

I guess that's a purely classical music thing?

[David Ayers]

Oh yes I know that SBEs are not the same as the two second gap introduced when burning with WMP or other players. But they can be quite audible and may be aggravated if the split between two abutting sections do not marry perfectly.

In the context of commercial classical sales they are quite unncessary since (1) no-one would ever want to buy only selected tracks of a continuously playing work and (2) all they do is replicate the CD index points which are a method of finding certain passages, so it ends up with the original CD index points creating a huge technical problem for no reason whatever. Boo hoo.

I've never understood that concept about index points... never even had a player capable of finding them.

I guess that's a purely classical music thing?

Well any long continuous work can be broken down into tracks, which play continuously. The few prog rock CDs I have also have this feature. As you can easily imagine, Wagnerian operaor anything which is similarly durchkomponiert benefits from this, but also some shorter works are internally indexed either because they have movements which are played attacca (joined) or just indexed simply to points in the score, simply for information. On CD it's fine as you don't notice it. With mp3s and FLACs it can become an issue...

Edited June 14, 2010 by David Ayers