Music on Public Radio

[Dr. Rat]

Howdy-

I am GM at a public station playing music in the far reaches of Northern Michigan.

We've got a potential audience of 150,000 (and that'd probably be on the high side) we need to pay our own way, so we need a fair number of those folks to listen and give for the station to stay on the air.

Research indicates that in order to get people to give, you need for them to listen to you a lot (average weekly time spent listening for successful stations generally runs about 8 hours). So, in order for the station to really get on its feet we've got to keep growing both our total listenership and our time spent listening.

Our public radio "competition" is: an NPR classical station, an NPR news station, and a mixed classical/news/jazz NPR station, as well as a religious station.

Right now we do a jazz mix (wide spectrum of jazz--though no AG), with a bit of folk, blues & world) in the day and mostly alt. rock at night.

But, I'm always interested inhearing from musically knowledgable and curious folks about

a) what would be cool to have in the jazz mix?

b) what other things we ought to be getting to at night?

c) is there anything else you have in mind that would be "mission fulfilling" (education and cultural enrichment) and viable withing the confines I outline above.

Anyhow, I'd be interested in reading your thoughts if you cared to trouble yourself,

--eric

[ghost of miles]

Hello to Traverse City! My family used to vacation up around Sleeping Bear Dunes quite a bit; I have many great childhood summer memories of Michigan, particularly the L.P. (The U.P. too, although we once drove practically all the way across it one night looking for a motel with a vacancy--does your signal reach that far?)

Eric, it sounds as if you're already doing what I'd suggest. I love jazz passionately, and I'm grateful that the public radio station where I work has a committment to jazz (not quite to the extent that yours does, however). I wish that our station, and public radio in general, did more to reach out to the 25-44 NPR demographic. I'd like to hear more Nick Drake, Gillian Welch, Elliott Smith, Lucinda Williams, Elvis Costello, etc. on public radio, as well as "adult alternative" (a dreadful term, I'll be the first to admit) music such as Yo La Tengo. NPR uses a lot of this stuff in the segments that get tapped for "All Songs Considered," and I think there's an audience out there for it--"smart pop," as it were.

It's interesting that you do jazz in the daytime and alt. rock at night. My own listening habits are the reverse of that. (Well, sometimes I listen to jazz in the daytime too... because I've got the religion bad. B) )

What proportion of your jazz programming is modern and what proportion is classic? How much emphasis do you put on vocal jazz? My "hunch" is that people prefer vocal to instrumental... don't know if public-radio audience stats would back me up there or not.

Great topic! I wish RonF were still around to chime in.

[ghost of miles]

I'm running the board this afternoon during All Things Considered, and right now they're doing a feature on Cyndi Lauper. I've frequently heard features during ATC on the artists that I listed above--do they get played much on other public radio stations around the country? Our station's format is classical/news/jazz, and our strong School of Music program here guaranteees that it will stay so. Which is fine, it's a format that I like--but as I said, I'd love to hear more variety!

[Jim Alfredson]

To extend on Ghost of Miles' idea, what about some bluegrass or newgrass or whatever they are calling it these days? Alison Krauss, Nickle Creek, etc. Seems like people up there might dig a couple hours of that here and there. And it's good stuff!!

[vibes]

I wish RonF were still around to chime in.

What happened to RonF, anyway?

[GA Russell]

Thanks for asking!

Fantasy Records has recently released for the first time music recorded decades ago by the likes of Bill Evans, Groove Holmes, Cal Tjader and Shelly Manne. I recommend them, and similar "lost in the vaults for years" recordings if you can find any.

[montg]

I imagine jazz during the day time is a bit tough to program....if people like to listen while they work, then something too surprising or boisterous might be problematic. But a lot of the best jazz is not background music--it does get one's attention. The local jazz station here has "solved" this problem by programing loads of jazz guitar throughout the day. Problem here is that (1) it's bland and (2) any newbie approaching the music my be turned off by it--"this is jazz--boring". I can't bear to listen to the same bland stuff and now I just listen to CDs at work that I have burned at home.

Anyway, I've noticed that Ben Allison has been on the college charts a lot lately--the jazz composers collective and people like that are fresh and may appeal. ALso, I love to hear something pre-1950 programmed now and then. I don't know anyone who can resist smiling or toe tapping to Basie's 9:20 special, Ellington's "A Train, anything by Pops etc.

Edited January 25, 2004 by montg

[Dr. Rat]

Hello to Traverse City! My family used to vacation up around Sleeping Bear Dunes quite a bit; I have many great childhood summer memories of Michigan, particularly the L.P. (The U.P. too, although we once drove practically all the way across it one night looking for a motel with a vacancy--does your signal reach that far?)

Eric, it sounds as if you're already doing what I'd suggest. I love jazz passionately, and I'm grateful that the public radio station where I work has a committment to jazz (not quite to the extent that yours does, however). I wish that our station, and public radio in general, did more to reach out to the 25-44 NPR demographic. I'd like to hear more Nick Drake, Gillian Welch, Elliott Smith, Lucinda Williams, Elvis Costello, etc. on public radio, as well as "adult alternative" (a dreadful term, I'll be the first to admit) music such as Yo La Tengo. NPR uses a lot of this stuff in the segments that get tapped for "All Songs Considered," and I think there's an audience out there for it--"smart pop," as it were.

It's interesting that you do jazz in the daytime and alt. rock at night. My own listening habits are the reverse of that. (Well, sometimes I listen to jazz in the daytime too... because I've got the religion bad. B) )

What proportion of your jazz programming is modern and what proportion is classic? How much emphasis do you put on vocal jazz? My "hunch" is that people prefer vocal to instrumental... don't know if public-radio audience stats would back me up there or not.

Great topic! I wish RonF were still around to chime in.

(Responding to all your comments)

Thanks a lot for the responses. Here's my responses to responses:

From what I hear, the programming gurus who work for NPR are working hard on developiong guidance for stations moving in the Adult Alternative direction.

One thing they've found is that their news listeners have a great deal of affinity for AAA. I think the first sign of this is the increasing amount and range of entertainment coverage on the news programs themselves. Soon I think a lot of NPR stations are going to have a "tie in" music signal to go along with the news/cultural coverage (as Clinton points out).

Personally I think sometimnes NPR pushes things a bit too far in the direction of pop, but I suppose they are feeling their way forward.

I'd like to emphasize the Alternative part of Adult alternative, because I think that's more in line with our duty to serve, but it's getting really easy to be alternative because commercial music radio is so narrow anymore.

We probably play more contemporary jazz (NOT the genre) than a lot of folks for a couple of reasons: our library is a bit patchy, and there's been a long standing dedication to playing current releases (which may be reissues, but these days tend more to be being working musicians). I've often thought of bringing the balance a bit more toward the classic, but haven't pulleed the trigger on that because it brings up some deep value conflicts for me.

I think part of the reason for the mixed format here was the fact that a straight jazz format tended to have few vocals and throwing in folk and blues got you a couple of extra every hour. There seems to me to be a fair deal more vocal jazz releases now, though. I have an issue with many of them, though (see earthy/etherial, below). I try to do something like a 50/50 vocal instrumental balance, though usually I think we're probably more like 60/40 toward instrumentals. I don't think this is bad--as long as we get that human voice in there with some regularity.

The "playing at work" thing definitely is a consideration for us, but the direction I've always thought to go is toward the earthy rather than toward the etherial.

I figure if people want plain background music, there are other options out there for them, and I don't think this sort of use is going to get me the sort of loyalty I need to turn "listeners" (don't know what to call someone who isn't really listenening) into supporters.

What we're looking for is a sound that rewards attention but doesn't absolutely command it.

On Ben Allison and the Composer's Collective: we've spun stuff from this circle quite a bit, a lot of this music interests me personally quite a bit, and it seems to do well with listeners as an important ingredient to the overall sound. Though we're up and down on it, too. Some stuff does extremely well, others I can't really see my way clear to add. As one might expect, I suppose.

On sophisticated bluegrass/newgrass and that stream of jam bandy sorta stuff: Yeah, if there's a zeitgeist up here, that's probably be where its at, and where some of my thinking ought to be going.

On the Fantasy stuff: Cal Tjader (hero of my youth!), Groove Holmes and company are here and spinning. Great stuff, hope for more. If only we could get our hands on more Fantasy material, both reissue and newly discovered . . .

--eric

[montg]

What we're looking for is a sound that rewards attention but doesn't absolutely command it.

Nice summation.

I've often thought of bringing the balance a bit more toward the classic, but haven't pulleed the trigger on that because it brings up some deep value conflicts for me.

I'm curious what the conflict is...I see the classical and new stuff as "both/and" rather than "either/or." For instance, if you look at threads here of the type, 'what jazz records first pulled you into the music', the answers generally refer to a classic. Once you get into the music, you generally find your way to the newer stuff.

Edited January 26, 2004 by montg

[Muskrat Ramble]

Problem here is that (1) it's bland and (2) any newbie approaching the music my be turned off by it--"this is jazz--boring". I can't bear to listen to the same bland stuff and now I just listen to CDs at work that I have burned at home.

Our local classical/news NPR station lost me years ago for similar reasons: their idea of classical music (at least during the day--at nights, they'd play syndicated live concerts or hosted shows of miscellany) is putting on the blandest, most innocuous stuff they can find. Plus, they'll often just play one movement of a multi-movement work (akin to playing just one minute of a five-minute jazz tune). So, as a serious fan, I found their approach lamentable, boring, and even offensive for chopping up great works of art and turning wonderfully rich, diverse, powerful music into something for the doctors' offices of the world They make classical music sound like sonic wallpaper for nursing homes; it's an enormous disservice to a great art form. Sort of like a "jazz" station just playing Kenny G and Co.--what a false impression that leaves of the music.

What I want to hear on public radio is a blend of provocative, unusual talk/interview shows (not news since I get that off the Net, and there's such an overabundance of news outlets in every medium), hardcore straight-ahead jazz of all styles and eras, and serious classical music of all styles and eras, with pieces played in full. Beethoven knows more than programming directors; don't play just part of the ninth symphony!

[Dr. Rat]

What we're looking for is a sound that rewards attention but doesn't absolutely command it.

Nice summation.

I've often thought of bringing the balance a bit more toward the classic, but haven't pulleed the trigger on that because it brings up some deep value conflicts for me.

I'm curious what the conflict is...I see the classical and new stuff as "both/and" rather than "either/or." For instance, if you look at threads here of the type, 'what jazz records first pulled you into the music', the answers generally refer to a classic. Once you get into the music, you generally find your way to the newer stuff.

Well, it is a value conflict--so, yes, I do recognize what you're saying about the attractions of the classics.

But I sometimes see this as a slippery slope sort of issue (you have to realize, too, that this isn't a heavily programmed station--people choose their own tracks within a relatively loose set of requirements, so I've always got to ask "What's the worst thing that could happen," because it will.). So if I open things up too far to revisiting the classics I'm going to have Freddy the Freeloader and So What and Compared to What and . . . . every single day for the rest of my life.

Much as I might like those tunes, I don't think I could stand to listen after a while.

The standard now is that most of what gets on the air is from a 100-cd current rotation (with occasional obscure classics thrown in for a bit of levening) which is supposed to comprise 80% of the jazz that gets played. This works out reasonably well, but can probably use some tweaking.

I've been thinking of getting a Sound Vault-type system where I could create lists of classic tunes for djs to draw from but which I could exercise some control over (once a tune got played a certain number of times, I could retire it for a while).

--eric

[WD45]

Plus, they'll often just play one movement of a multi-movement work (akin to playing just one minute of a five-minute jazz tune).

In defense of this, playing entire works was often not the norm when the pieces were written. This is a relatively contemporary phenomenon. [in terms of classical music performance.]