External DACs vs high end transport/DAC combos

[DrJ]

In my "help wanted" thread for getting ideas and input on setting up my listening room, I've been getting great guidance from our friend wolff in the area of tube amps and well-suited speakers. Also a bunch of excellent suggestions from others too. However, wolff freely admits he's a vinyl guy, so not able to give as much help with front ends for CD, which will be by far my main format for listening. Nobody else seems to be chiming in now about CD players, so I'm thinking people have stopped looking there and that I better post this question here.

Yesterday I heard an amazing Audio Note set up - Meishu integrated amp (two of their mono triodes bundled with a preamp), Zingali speakers. For CD playback, the listening room had a transport-only rig paired with the Audio Note 2.1 DAC which sounded sweet, sweet, sweet...most vinyl-like CD sound I've ever heard. I have to say I left a convert.

I had not been thinking about this external DAC approach...the owner (he specializes in tube stuff, been in Sacto area for 35+ years and very knowledgeable and low key) recommended strongly that, rather than going out and buying an expensive all in one CD player (transport plus high end DAC), I just stick with my Pioneer Elite DV45A player for use as a transport and connect the Audio Note DAC (via digital out) to bypass the in-player converters and upgrade sound capability that way. So a couple questions:

1. What do people think about the external DAC approach? Pros/cons? Any guidance?

2. Audio Note DACs eschew the up/oversampling approach with a "1x" philosophy. It sounded great, but I wonder if people have compared a good upsampling player (e.g. Meridian G08) with this type of DAC head to head (I wasn't able to do that in the store ). Would I be better off spending 3000+ on a new upsampling player like the Meridian, or investing it all in the Audio Note DAC for use with my current transport? I like a smooth, nonfatiguing sound but also enjoy hearing a lot of sonic detail and I wonder if using the AN DAC would sacrifice some detail for smoothness?

Edited April 25, 2004 by DrJ

[porcy62]

The main problems with a separate combo is the digital connection and the matching with two different gear, as usual in Hi End, I do not like separates because you have to test a lot of gears and digital cables until you find the combination you like.

The risk is introduce jitter and clock problems.

Separates are usually good when they come from a single constructor, the project is optimized, sometimes they add a connection for sincronize the transport and DAC.

I would not risk 3000 bucks on a different brand.

Did you already consider a real universal player, SACD,CD,DVD?

My suggestions, as Lynn lover (and vinyl guy), is listen to Lynn Ikemi Cd player and the new Lynn Unidisk, you will not be disappointed.

Edited April 26, 2004 by porcy62

[DrJ]

Well, I think the Pioneer DV45A is going to have to do me for now as universal player. I do plan on upgrading that eventually, but I am wanting to get as much mileage as possible out of regular CD too. My initial plan was to go for a Teac Esoteric DV-50 universal player, but hearing the amazing things both the AudioNote DAC and Meridian G08 did with regular CD made me think it's probably not necessary for now (although the Teac is supposed to be darn good with regular CD too) - I only have a handful of titles in SACD and DVD-A right now after all and can add a better quality universal player later. I want to maximize regular CD's potential.

I'll check out the Linn Ikemi. The Unidisk is way out of my price range for a front end right now...the Teac Esoteric is a little above but $10,000+ for a CD player, no matter how good, is not going to be feasible right now!

I share your concerns about the hassles of multiple boxes...leaning more and more towards a good all-in-one like the Meridian G08 or Linn Ikemi.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

Doc, you're getting way out of my comfort zone with this one. I am not big on outboard D/A's as I think they can be another way to get some serious $$ out of your wallet for very little gain. Today's CD players are putting out some amazing audio. I swear I can hear a flea farting in the studio. However, I cannot hear the flea's fart echo off the right rear corner wall. Should I be worried? Nah... I have better things to worry about.

Later,

Kevin

Edited April 26, 2004 by Kevin Bresnahan

[porcy62]

I agree with Kevin, today's cd players deliver great sound compared to old ones, that is a problem for me, I could find great used power amps, preamps and loudspeakers at a reasonable price, but no good sounding used cd players, digital technology is running to fast.

If I were you I would check single box cd players between 2000 and 3500 dollars, if it's in your budget.

For more than that I would buy the Lynn Unidisk 2.1 (6900 euros in Italy).

P.S. A friend of mine has a Naim CD5, a real good sounding gear.

Edited April 26, 2004 by porcy62

[Claude]

Another point against seperate DACs is that in the price range up to $3000 they cost as much as complete CD players of the same level. So the argument that older CD players can be upgraded with a DAC at a lower cost isn't true most of the time.

An obvious advantage of external DACs is that several digital sources can be connected, for example also a DVD player or a PC soundcard.

[DrJ]

Thanks for your input folks!

For all the reasons indicated, I'm leaning pretty strongly toward a good all in one CD player for all these reasons, probably the Meridian G08 (will check out the Linn Ikemi and comparably priced machines though for sure).

Kevin Bresnahan Posted on Apr 26 2004, 11:04 AM

I swear I can hear a flea farting in the studio. However, I cannot hear the flea's fart echo off the right rear corner wall.

What about the squeak coming from his lil' bitty sock cymbal foot pedal mechanism?

Edited April 26, 2004 by DrJ

[wolff]

Don't most CD players have outputs so you can add on a DAC at a later time.

Build up a friendship with your dealer so he'll let you home audition their demo pieces over the weekend. That way you will be better able to tell how different pieces sound in your sysytem. It's a real good way to go. Also, see if there are any high-end dealers with a used equipment in your area.

[DrJ]

Yes, you just need a digital out...that's pretty standard now.

I'm gonna try the home demo route out for sure.

[jazzhound]

it has been about 4 years since I did a comparison, but at that time I compared the best Meridian cd player which was A rated and cost 4 k to my Delta transport and PS Audio Ultralink IIdac with the HDCD or whatever it is called filter using MIT Zip cord which makes a BIG difference. I also compared the sonic frontiers top of the line cd player.

I was surprised to find the cd players sounded like a noise boxes compared to my set up. The difference was so huge in almost all aspects that I still believe cd players could not compete with seperates due to putting the transport in the same box as the dac raises the noise except in maybe the most expensive current cd players. ( which I am doubtful about.)

Other seperate combos I have heard also seemed to have lower noise floors that cd players.

[Man with the Golden Arm]

Doc, you're getting way out of my comfort zone with this one. I am not big on outboard D/A's as I think they can be another way to get some serious $$ out of your wallet for very little gain.

eggs ackley!

i borrowed a friend's very very expensive converter once and hooked it up to be able to switch quickly between it and normal mode and he a/b-ed me and i could not even pick up any differentiation between having it on or not. save it for some fresh sounding "software".

[DrJ]

Sigh...this seems typical, by far the most controversy out there regarding CD players than any other component. I will listen and trust my ears.

[hununu]

Why not get a decent universal player and a DAC1? It even handles jitter. :-)

Another very good dac is Scott's TubeDac since you don't pay the brand price.

And yes, it all comes down to your ears, use them. Personally, I'd rather have external tube dacs or even others... The simple reason is that most 2k-3k players aren't really that good for what they cost and you can get a better sound using a 100$us player plus a DAC1. Of course, this only works for red book. For SACD, you really need high-end players to have good converters *unless* you mod it.. :-)

While you are investing lots of $, check out pro audio gear prices and see that it's really cheaper than many "audiophiles" solutions. Try to hear that stuff (mainly dacs) and you will soon realize that pro-audio gear is superior at the same price since you don't get the audiophile price hype. Of course, that will not make the "wow" effect from your friends ;-)

[Kevin Bresnahan]

Why not get a decent universal player and a DAC1? It even handles jitter. :-)

Another very good dac is Scott's TubeDac since you don't pay the brand price.

And yes, it all comes down to your ears, use them. Personally, I'd rather have external tube dacs or even others... The simple reason is that most 2k-3k players aren't really that good for what they cost and you can get a better sound using a 100$us player plus a DAC1. Of course, this only works for red book. For SACD, you really need high-end players to have good converters *unless* you mod it.. :-)

While you are investing lots of $, check out pro audio gear prices and see that it's really cheaper than many "audiophiles" solutions. Try to hear that stuff (mainly dacs) and you will soon realize that pro-audio gear is superior at the same price since you don't get the audiophile price hype. Of course, that will not make the "wow" effect from your friends ;-)

You cannot use an external DAC for either SACD or DVD-Audio so there is little reason to go this route. The only way I know of to use an "external" DAC for these high rez formats is with Pioneer Elite's line. Their high-end home theater receivers mate with the high-end combi players using i-Link. Why we should believe that the DACs in a receiver are better than the ones in the player is beyond me.

BTW, is it me, or did DrJ's last post in this thread get deleted?? I could swear I read that he had decided to go with an external DAC after A/B'ing a rig in his local shop. Didn't I read that? Maybe it was in his other audio thread... I'll go check.

Later,

Kevin

[hununu]

Hello Kevin,

Yes, of course at the moment you can't use external dacs unless you start seriously modding a pioneer 565/563 or something similar. I wasn't actually thinking in SACD when I made that comment as I thought it was obvious there are very few ways to get SACD data digitally out from dvd players.

I was honestly thinking in the hundreds of rb cds people who love music normally own and still want to hear in the best possible way.

Although I am looking out for some sacd releases, honestly, unless you like mainly mainstream or are a label (Telarc, etc) follower, you will not be able to get sacd for what you like to hear. Someday everything will be released in hybrid sacd, but when that happens, 75$us players will play and output digitally sacd and we will have excellent two channel external DACs.

I guess an external dac only for playing red book is still a must for me, but as always, each person has to find out what is best for him/her. :-)

ps: I agree with you when you say you don't understand why dacs on receivers should sound better.. my entry-level pioneer 812 dac's aren't really that great for red book audio.

Best,

BA