Fer Urbina

George Russell - Complete RCA Recordings

20 posts in this topic

Hello everyone,

The LoneHill CD "George Russell - The Complete Bluebird Recordings" includes his Jazz Workshop + a session from Hal McKusick's Jazz Workshop. From the latter, there is an alternate take of "The Day John Brown Was Hanged".

Does anyone know about any previous issue (LP, CD or whatever) including the alt. take of "The Day John Brown Was Hanged"? I'm asking because LoneHill are not known for unearthing rare material (to put it mildly)

I have not found a Japanese edition of McKusick's "Jazz Workshop". The RCA/BMG CD (published in Spain) does not have an alternate take. BMG France have reissued the Russell Workshop with alt. takes, but I have not been able to found a BMG France reissue of the McKusick Workshop.

The compilation "The RCA Victor Jazz Workshop - The Arrangers" (RCA Victor ND 86471) does not have the alt. take either.

Any help will be most welcome.

F U

Edited by Fer Urbina

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Instead of all the rhetoric, how about an answer to the very interesting question that was posed?

Mike

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hola Fer,

the take of "The day john brown..." on the McKusick's "the Jazz workshop" (RCA/BMG spanish version) is 7:51 long.

on "The Rca victor jazz workshop: the arrangers" is 7:14 long.

so it's seems that they are two different takes, but I don't know if those are the two of the Lonehill release.

I hope it helps,

Cheers,

Diego

Edited by bison ravi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello

Diego, glad to see you here and muchas gracias for the tip. Hadn't had the chance to really check the McKusick Workshop CD (BMG Spain 74321913522). I just did, and the fact is the only difference between the shorter and longer versions of TDJBWH is that the longer one has an "extra" section at the end, a reprise of the lively first section of the piece, which has been edited off in the shorter one.

I just compared the shorter TDJBWH in LoneHill LHJ 10177 (#15) with the longer one in McKusick's Jazz Workshop (#7) and they are exactly the same, except that the longer one lags behind (less than a second after 7 minutes, that might due to the transfers) and of course, there is an "extra" section at the end of the longer one.

The version on "Jazz Workshop - The Arrangers" (BMG Germany ND86471) is the shorter one, the same as the one in LoneHill (#15), although it also seems to lag behind.

So no alternate take, apparently. For the sake of completeness, I'd be grateful if anyone could check whether the discographies show any alternate take at all (I don't have any discography at hand).

Thanks in advance and all the best,

F U

(Edited to add that I have also checked that the longer versions in LoneHill (#18) and BMG Spain (#7) are exactly the same, with some lagging behind. Could this be due to the CD players I'm using simultaneously?)

Edited by Fer Urbina

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sounds like they're using an alternate edit rather than an alternate take. If both were contemporaneously released in some format, then I suppose they're fair game for a "complete" set, although they should be properly labelled. But otherwise, calling it an "alternate take" is nothing more than flase advertising.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bruyninckx (& Lord) show only one performance of this piece.

Another reason to include timings (and notes regarding them) in discographies!

If indeed the shorter version is just an edit of the longer, I would NOT list two performances, but would list the longer timing and indicate in a note that certain issues have incomplete versions - same as one would do for cut-down 45 rpm versions, etc.

Bruyninckx CDROM

-Jazz Workshop- : Hal McKusick Quartet : Hal McKusick (cl,as) Barry Galbraith (g) Milt Hinton (b) Osie Johnson (d) George Russell (tamb-2,arr,comp-1) Al Cohn (arr,comp-2)

New York, March 3, 1956

G2JB2703 The day John Brown was hanged (1,2) Vic LPM1366, BB 6471-2-RB, (Eu)ND

86471, RCA 2135734-2

G2JB2704 Lydian lullaby (1) Vic LPM1366, BB 6471-2-RB, (Eu)ND

86471

G2JB2707 Ain't nothing but a memory now (2) Vic LPM1366

Note : RCA (Eu)2135734-2 entitled "Victor Jazz History Vol.15-Progressive Jazz", rest by other artists. Bluebird 6471-2-RB (CD) as "The RCA Victor Jazz Workshop-The arrangers", see following sessions & rest of this CD by John Carisi and Rod Levitt. Entire session on RCA 191352-2 and 2158055-2.

Lord CDROM 5.0

[M4504-5] Hal McKusick

Jazz Workshop: Hal McKusick Quartet:

Hal McKusick (cl,as) Barry Galbraith (g) Milt Hinton (b) Osie Johnson (d) George Russell (tamb,arr,comp-1) Al Cohn (arr,comp-2)

New York, March 3, 1956

G2JB2703 The day John Brown was hanged (1) Vic LPM1366, RCA Bluebird 6471-2-RB [CD]

G2JB2704 Lydian lullaby (1) - -

G2JB2707 Ain't nothing but a memory now (2) -

Note: RCA Bluebird 6471-2-RB [CD] titled "The RCA Victor Jazz Workshop - The arrangers"; see flwg sessions to April 4, 1956 for more titles; rest of this CD by John Carisi, Rod Levitt.

Mike

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If indeed the shorter version is just an edit of the longer, I would NOT list two performances, but would list the longer timing and indicate in a note that certain issues have incomplete versions - same as one would do for cut-down 45 rpm versions, etc.

Exactly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Many thanks, Mike. That's what I thought. I listened to both versions at the same time, and although it might well be a completely notated piece (no improvisations), everything sounds exactly the same.

Sounds like they're using an alternate edit rather than an alternate take. If both were contemporaneously released in some format, then I suppose they're fair game for a "complete" set, although they should be properly labelled. But otherwise, calling it an "alternate take" is nothing more than flase advertising.

You're right, and since I don't know the timing of the version on the original LP, I cannot say for which issue was the last bit edited off. In any case, it seems that someone has been putting things together rather hastily (which can happen to any label, anyway), and I don't have time to go further with this (basically, checking when was the first time the long version was issued, which I suspect it's the BMG-Spain CD)

As for the false advertising, the label on "Hal McKusick - The Complete Barry Galbraith, Milt Hinton and Osie Johnson Recordings" (LoneHill LHJ10176) says "Collectors' Items on CD for the First Time Ever". The fact is that everything in there has been previouly released on CD in

Hal McKusick - Jazz At The Academy (Universal UCCC-9064, Japan 2003)

Hal McKusick - The Jazz Workshop (RCA/BMG 74321913522, Spain 2001)

Hal McKusick - East Coast Jazz/8 (Fresh Sound FSR-CD 41, Spain 1989)

Hal McKusick Octet - In A Twentieth-Century Drawing Room (RCA/BMG 74321125842, Spain 1996)

Thanks again,

F U

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't rip off jazz musicians. Don't buy Lonehill product nor any other illegitimate goods stolen from the toil and intellectual property of others. Really. This is a rather obvious good-conduct reminder.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now that the original question has been answered, I'll finally be retroactive man enough to stand up and say that I agree w/Clem - Lonehill is a sleaze operation.

For Professional Suckers Only.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't need the lecture. Why do you think I am supporting Lonehill (or other ripoff labels)? Just because I think it's important in a discography forum to know whether or not two takes exist of something?

And do you really think there has not been any discussion of the Lonehill label and its problems here on the board? You yourself posted virtually identical comments in July 2004.

Now, if you really want to think about it - while you're buying one Lonehill and burning billions of free copies - who the hell do you think you're ripping off? Lonehill? Well, what about the legitimate owners of the material? In effect, you're just as bad as Lonehill now. RCA has a legitimate claim on this material - and you're advocating stealing it. Please. Remember that the board has a policy regarding discussion of distributing CDRs of copyrighted material.

In any event, whether "greater issues" or not, it's NOT the point of the Discography forum and it's NOT the point of this thread. Please carry further discussion over to the Reissues forum - perhaps at this thread:

http://www.organissimo.org/forum/index.php...=lonehill&st=80

Mike

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One possibility not mentioned is that Lonehill "created" the longer take via editing. There may not be a single new note.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good point. Not exactly an unknown practice, is it...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now here's a release that is and isn't relevant to this thread, but should be of interest to you, clem.

C8749292XFJ.jpg

Jewel Records JCD 5059, produced by the illustrious Stan Lewis.

You know what this is? Big Joe singing over the cheesiest prerecorded digital band-in-a-box type backing tracks imaginable. Was Turner in the same room with the computer while recording? Who knows! :g

Not only that, but some of the tracks are reused from tune to tune - only the lyrics change!

If you see it at a truck stop or a cafe for under $5, grab it, just as a tribute to the irrationally inspired depths of lunacy that some folks will go to in order to have product in the marketplace.

Edited by JSngry

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The chances of Lonehill digging up something new on their own is approaching infinite zero, so don't all uptight on bogus discog questions when there's a greater Cause at hand.

Hi Clementine,

With all due respect, that was definitely NOT a bogus question. I agree with what Mike said about the discography forum not being the place to discuss this.

Statement of the obvious, but there's a difference between saying what you said, and actually using some of your time to actually check the music and get to a conclusion. I never suggested LoneHill had dug up something new. I was trying to establish where it came from.

About what Chuck Nessa (hello there) suggested, IMO I suspect there is a strong chance that the LoneHills have lifted the shorter version from the Jazz Workshop-Arrangers CD and the longer one from the BMG-Spain issue of McKusick's Workshop. Easier and quicker, but I'd be glad to be proved wrong.

F U

PS Since I'm a "newbie" here, FYI and for the record, I completely sympathise with musicians and people like Cuscuna, Nessa, et al. I cannot begin to imagine what it feels like to be ripped off your hard work. I actually think it is too serious a matter to dispatch it with witty comments, loud chest-beating, fingerpointing and ideas like "please, don't buy cheap CDs available in the nearest shop."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fer -

You may be a newbie here, but you speak like somebody who's anything but when it comes to the music.

Welcome! Looking forward to your contributions!

In defense of Clem, that's his M.O. Get to know him, and you'll find him to be one of the sharper pencils in the box. Really. Don't let the ranting fool you. The cat's contentious but cool. .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

... back in 1995, I was declared by an act of the State Legislature of Texas, a Streetwise Prophet of the Now Generation; this was signed by none other than Gov. Goerge W. Bush himself who noted the same thing.

I don't want to believe that, but I'm somehow having a hard time not... :g:g:g:g:g

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

F Me?!

Hi Clem,

With my original surname, the options are F U or F O.

Thanks for the welcome!

Fer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Has anyone the RCA LP to check the timing? To me this sounds like a recapitulation of the fast first theme of that tune was simply cut off. The shorter version on the RCA Victor Jazz Workshop comp cuts off at 7:15, which is exactly the point in time of a break before the fast part is reprised.

Maybe the RCA engineers loused up when selecting the tracks for the comp, thought the track was over ....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nothing to add to this thread, really.

Just wanted to give a hearty welcome to my good friend Fernando.

I hope you start posting frequently round here: you have a lot to contribute!

(and what´s more... with a very good English... unlike others) :w

Un abrazo,

Agustín

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.