Exotica vs. "real" world music

[Guy Berger]

I recently picked up Yusef Lateef's Eastern Sounds, which is a very nice album but seems to me to fit more into the "superficially exotic-sounding jazz" category than real fusion of jazz with third-world music. I'd also put some of Ellington's stuff in this category. With Coltrane, I'm less sure - there seems to be an effort to engage with the source music. And when you get to something like Shakti - well, these guys aren't faking it.

Anyway, I'd be interested in opening up a general discussion of this subject. I'm tired and will post more thoughts tomorrow - my personal feeling is that there's nothing wrong with "superficially exotic sounding" as long as the music itself is good. Authenticity is no guarantee of quality music either. BUT - in general I would prefer some sort of real engagement with the "outside" music.

[Teasing the Korean]

I would like to take part in this discussion, and have WAY more to say on the subject than I can post now.

I will say, though, that music falls at various points on this continuum, and it doesn't stay at a fixed point, depending on when and where you are. IMHO, a lot of the "serious" western attempts at "real" world music that were done in, say, the 1980s and 1990s now come off as pretentious and humorless. Despite the intentions of the artists, the music is every bit as artificial as a Martin Denny record. But Martin Denny is a hell of a lot more fun and goes much better with rum cocktails.

I'll post more. This topic is of real interest to me.

[Rooster_Ties]

Much of Rabih Abou-Khalil's music seems like a true hybrid between "real" world music, and "real" jazz (or as true as any such hybrid I've ever heard).

I have about 6 or 7 of his discs, and can't say enough good things about them.

[seeline]

R. A.-K.'s music is (imo) a fusion of Arabic classical, Lebanese folkloric and pop elements + jazz (and many other things); I think people like Lateef were experimenting with bringing other kinds of instruments and sounds into a N. American jazz context, which is different to what people like R. A.-K. are doing.

I think more of the successful "fusion" styles tend to come from people who were/are grounded in their own "roots" styles 1st, rather than the other way around, though there are some major exceptions.

But adding certain instruments, rhythms and melodic forms just to give something an "exotic" flavor is much different than fully integrating those elements into the music being played.

I think Airto is a great example of someone who was able to bring a variety of Brazilian instruments, rhythms and aesthetics into a North American jazz context, and also successful at creating his own blend of jazz and various forms of Brazilian music (plus some other styles as well; he's pretty eclectic, but so are many other Brazilian percussionists...).

I do think this whole subject will look vastly different to whoever's talking about it, depending on their (my) individual pov and experience with listening to and/or playing music from other cultures.

(I'll add that I've heard - and, a number of years back, reviewed - several "fusion" projects where Europeans went to Africa and ran the recording sessions. In all cases, things would probably have worked far better if some of the African sidemen had been able to head up the projects. Oh well...)

just my .02 worth - nothing definitive here.

Edited January 4, 2010 by seeline

[White Lightning]

I believe Guy has a valid point. There is the Jazz-World fusion style that basically is Jazz in its essence (swing/blues/whatever) that adds "world music" (I use the term for lack of a better one) ornamentation. That style of ornamented Jazz is quite common say, a specific North African/Maghreb/Andalus music.

The other Jazz-World fusion "style" (it's not a "style" per-se) is more of a true fusion in the way the 2 essences of the musical genres, say Jazz and Andalusian fused together into one. It is usually a fusion of distinct musical genres that the musician is fluent with. Jon Jang, Miguel Zenon, Omer Avital, Rabih Abu Khalil, Anouar Brahem, Abatte Berihun and Dudu Pukwana to name a few.

[A Lark Ascending]

One of the ironies is that what westerners consider to be 'real' 'world' music is often not what local people are wanting to play or listen to. They conform to western assumptions about 'authenticity'.

Seeline and MG will know more about this but I think I'm right in suggesting that a fair few African performers (for example) make acoustic only recordings for a European-US market when their music at home embraces a much wider range of technology.

Which is a way of saying, don't worry about if it's 'real'. Musicians have been sprinkling influences as icing sugar for centuries (Mozart and his 'Turkish' influences, for example). What matters is if it produces interesting or attractive music. And that will vary according to the ear of the beholder.

*****************

In jazz you get musicians who have studied or emerged in another sphere (e.g. a 'folk' or 'roots' music) and then get interested in jazz; musicians who start in jazz and then become aware of other music that lies in their heritage and start to bring it in; and musicians who take music from spheres outside their own immediate cultural background and add it in.

In theory the first two should have the best chance of being 'real', the latter should produce 'exotica'. But I'm not sure it actually works out like that all the time.

Edited January 4, 2010 by Bev Stapleton

[Teasing the Korean]

One of the ironies is that what westerners consider to be 'real' 'world' music is often not what local people are wanting to play or listen to. They conform to western assumptions about 'authenticity'.

Great point.

[Stefan Wood]

One of the ironies is that what westerners consider to be 'real' 'world' music is often not what local people are wanting to play or listen to. They conform to western assumptions about 'authenticity'.

Great point.

Les Baxter was the master of this "inauthentic" world music. Fun and very original music, nevertheless.

Edited January 4, 2010 by Stefan Wood

[seeline]

Bev makes some great points.

Regarding Anouar Brahem, I personally don't believe his work is "jazz," even though his ECM releases are often understood and promoted as such. His music is through-composed for the most part. I once saw him (with Turkish clarinetist Barbaros Erköse and Lassad Hosni, who usually plays Arabic percussion on his recordings) and ... they more or less played through the compositions on his then-new album, Astrakhan Café, note for note.

I really enjoyed hearing Erköse and Hosni, but it was, on the whole, a very underwhelming concert. Nothing caught fire.

Maybe I'm just a contrarian, but I keep trying to listen to Brahem's recordings and keep coming away with ... well, not much. (Especially compared to some of the guys who are doing really serious fusion/improv, like Turkish musician Okay Temiz.)

I don't want to dismiss Brahem out of hand - there definitely is something there - but it just doesn't do much for me. (I could say the same of a number of "Western" artists who record for ECM, or, at least, their ECM recordings, but that's a whole different topic!)

Edited January 4, 2010 by seeline

[seeline]

Les Baxter was the master of this "inauthentic" world music. Fun and very original music, nevertheless.

I seriously doubt he was worried about being "authentic," which is part of the fun, no?

Must confess that I'm not really a fan, but hey - it's a big world, and there's plenty of room in it for his brand of originality - and playfulness, too.

[Guy Berger]

One of the ironies is that what westerners consider to be 'real' 'world' music is often not what local people are wanting to play or listen to. They conform to western assumptions about 'authenticity'.

Seeline and MG will know more about this but I think I'm right in suggesting that a fair few African performers (for example) make acoustic only recordings for a European-US market when their music at home embraces a much wider range of technology.

This reminds me of the story about how on his first British tour, audiences were shocked to hear Muddy Waters playing with an electric guitar and a pounding beat. (Didn't he go acoustic-only for his second tour as a result?)

[David Ayers]

One of the ironies is that what westerners consider to be 'real' 'world' music is often not what local people are wanting to play or listen to. They conform to western assumptions about 'authenticity'.

Seeline and MG will know more about this but I think I'm right in suggesting that a fair few African performers (for example) make acoustic only recordings for a European-US market when their music at home embraces a much wider range of technology.

This reminds me of the story about how on his first British tour, audiences were shocked to hear Muddy Waters playing with an electric guitar and a pounding beat. (Didn't he go acoustic-only for his second tour as a result?)

Hell, most folks here expect their jazz to be acoustic and dread the electric bass. And anything involving electronics or amplification is generally avoided by traditional symphony orchestras or requires copious program notes to explain it to a reluctant audience. Acoustic instruments, eh - who needs them?

[A Lark Ascending]

One of the ironies is that what westerners consider to be 'real' 'world' music is often not what local people are wanting to play or listen to. They conform to western assumptions about 'authenticity'.

Seeline and MG will know more about this but I think I'm right in suggesting that a fair few African performers (for example) make acoustic only recordings for a European-US market when their music at home embraces a much wider range of technology.

This reminds me of the story about how on his first British tour, audiences were shocked to hear Muddy Waters playing with an electric guitar and a pounding beat. (Didn't he go acoustic-only for his second tour as a result?)

Hell, most folks here expect their jazz to be acoustic and dread the electric bass. And anything involving electronics or amplification is generally avoided by traditional symphony orchestras or requires copious program notes to explain it to a reluctant audience. Acoustic instruments, eh - who needs them?

Clearly what is needed is for a member of the inner sanctum of the cognoscenti to get up on stage at concerts and tick off our wretched audiences for their conservatism. That should encourage them to be more adventurous.