Revelations BFT109

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

BFT109

I’ve tried mostly to pick cuts that ‘tell a story’, or maybe have one attached to them.

1Dave Bartholomew – Stardust – DeLuxe 1104. New Orleans, Sep 1947. Taken from disc C of the JSP box ‘Roy Brown & New Orleans R&B’ JSP7756C

Dave Bartholomew (tp), Joe Harris (as), Clarence Hall (ts), Fred Lands (p), Meyer Kennedy (g), Frank Fields (b), Earl Palmer (d)

Dave Bartholomew, with Jesse Stone and Maxwell Davis, is one of the three great geniuses who, in the late forties and fifties, defined the R&B style. A ‘backroom’ guy whose work has been heard by almost the entire world, though they mostly didn’t know who they were listening to – well, they thought they were listening to someone else: Fats Domino, T-Bone Walker; Pee Wee Crayton; Smiley Lewis; Lloyd Price; Shirley & Lee; the Spiders; Bobby Mitchell and many others on the New Orleans scene (visitors or residents).

Dave only had one minor hit under his own name; ‘Country boy’ (DeLuxe 3223) which slipped into the R&B jukebox chart for 1 week in 1950. Most of his recordings, like ‘Country boy’ fall into the mainstream of New Orleans R&B, but ‘Stardust’ doesn’t fall into any stream. When I got the box set and played it through for the first time, this cut was first on the Dave Bartholomew disc and really killed me dead! It’s definitely a wake up performance and no doubt that was what Bartholomew intended for his first recording. ‘Yeah, here I am, MFs!’

Interestingly, at school, Dave was taught trumpet by the same guy who taught Louis Armstrong; Peter Davis. I never heard that Armstrong played ‘Stardust’ this way!

2 Fred Wesley – Swing and be funky – Minor Music 801027. Stadtgarten Restaurant, Cologne, Germany, 11 May 1992. Produced by Stephan Meyner & Fred Wesley. Taken from the album of the same name.

Hugh Ragin (tp), Fred Wesley (tb), Karl Denson (ts), Peter Madsen (p), Dwayne Dolphin (b), Bruce Cox (d)

This was the first of Fred’s post JB/George Clinton/Basie albums I bought. It was also my introduction to Karl Denson, who’s a burning motherfucker on this! Also my introduction to Hugh Ragin, who might seem a bit of an odd choice for a trumpet player on this. Fred, however, had been a friend of John Coltrane back in the days before he joined the James Brown band and, in the intro to one of his tracks on a different album, referred to a piece of strong advice Trane had given him; ‘Keep a thing goin’’. And he and the others did! Not just on this track, but through the album, which is one of my favourite live recordings ever. So I had to get it in a BFT sometime, and it’s been queued up for the last three J

Ragin’s appearance on this points up the Lou Donaldson fallacy – ‘Outside players should play outside… outside the club.’ The avant garde is not my favourite listening, everyone knows. But I’d never think those guys couldn’t play. If I have an issue with the avant garde, it’s that they tend ONLY to play outside. Ragin made 3 albums with this band, over a period of two and a half years and probably did lots of gigs with them. Many musicians are well known for being able to step outside their usual framework – Pops, Freddie Hubbard, Jaws, Duke. I can only think that avant garde musicians don’t do more mainstream work because it wouldn’t be commercial for them; although they think they’re free, they’re tied to what the industry thinks will make money.

3 Willie Bobo - Let your hair down blues – Roulette 52097. New York, 11 Oct 1962. Produced by Teddy Rieg. Taken from ‘Bobo’s beat’.

Clark Terry (tp), Joe Farrell (ts), Frank Anderson (org), Chick Corea (p), Willie Bobo (timbales, perc), others unknown. (Terry, Farrell & Corea aren’t audible on this and may have sat out this cut.)

Yes indeed, more Willie Bobo! No apologies; I’ve had this queued up since my first BFT in 2007 and was determined it was going in this time. And it’s VERY different from his Verve material.

This track’s very different from the rest of the material on the album, as well. I don’t know where they pulled this idea from, except that, since the composer is credited as Frank Anderson, I guess it just came out at the session. Anyway, I rate this as one of the world’s greatest grooves; and more – whoever this guy is (he seems to work mainly in a Latin context), he’s got something different to say on organ.

4 Bill Doggett – Fatso – ABC 507. New York, 17 Nov 1964. Produced by Sid Feller. Taken from ‘Wow!’.

Bill Doggett (org), Elvin Shepherd (as), Andrew Ennis (ts), Billy Butler, Lamar McDaniels (g), Al Lucas (b), Emmett J Spencer (d), Charles E Hatcher (perc)

No matter how great his recordings for King were (and they WERE great), this is my favourite Doggett album. This track is a particular favourite. I particularly love the quote from ‘Riders in the sky’ – I don’t think anyone else has ever used that as a quote. It makes the entire cut one you can’t easily forget.

Trivia: Andy Ennis was Ethel Ennis’ brother. He later joined the Ray Charles band and played the tenor solo on ‘Booty butt’.

5 The Movers – Repeat after me – City Special CYL1029. Johannesburg (?), 1974. Produced by David Thekwane. From the LP of the same title.

Sam Thabo (drums), Archie Mohkaka (drums), Sankie Chounyane (piano, organ), Oupa Hlongwane (lead guitar), Norman Hlongwane (bass guitar), Peter Moteolhe (bass guitar), Lulu Masilela (alto sax), Thomas Phale (alto sax), David Thekwane (alto sax), Dakkie Tau (lead guitar), Robert Mbele (tenor sax). (I’m guessing the flute player is David Thekwane because I think I recognise Lulu and Thomas on alto. Sleeve doesn’t mention a flute.)

There’s quite an ironic story behind this. The sleeve notes of a couple of CD reissues on Gallo by Ntemi Piliso devoted some space to the antagonism that erupted between Abdullah Ibrahim, when he returned to South Africa in the mid-seventies, and the South African musicians who’d stayed at home. Apparently he was criticising SA jazz musicians left, right and centre. The notes quote Lulu Masilela, a saxophonist and organist.

“Ibrahim and his wife both played classical and jazz and this and that, and then he announced, ‘this is what is called music, unlike [your] African music, for instance like Mbaqanga. That is just mnyana phambile ["running in the dark"]. That's not music!’

“I was so angry! I said we are here to listen to him play. Now here it is he criticises what we are doing and what we are living on! To my thinking, he was trying to insult us musicians that cannot read and write music. Yes, that was definitely how I looked at it.

"And then a month later here comes this popular song ['Mannenburg' by] Dollar Brand! This same guy that once said this and this and this about our cultural music and to my ears this sounds like one of Bra Zacks' songs, and it is! I said to myself, how about re-recording this tune and play it the way it is [and] instead I will give the credit to Bra Zacks because this is Zacks Nkosi's song."

Masilela and The Movers did record Mannenburg (though the producer, David Thekwane, wouldn’t credit Nkosi, and had the satisfaction of seeing the Mover's recording outsell Ibrahim's recording.

The irony is that no matter how outraged Lulu and co were about Ibrahim stealing a Zacks Nkosi tune, they weren’t at all concerned that this track is a rip-off of Roger Newman’s ‘3/4 of the time’, which David Newman had recorded in 1972 on the ‘Lonely avenue’ album.

The LP was released in America in 1976 on the Generation label, a Nashville organisation.

6 Willie Mitchell – Misty – Hi 12034. Memphis, c1967. Produced by Willie Mitchell. From ‘The hit sound of Willie Mitchell’.

Tenor solo is by unknown, who was playing a lot with Mitchell at this period Mitchell always had good blokes in his band. Royal Studios webpage quotes Sweet Soul Music as mentioning Phineas Newborn, Jr., Charles Lloyd, Booker Little, Frank Strozier, George Coleman, Lewis Steinberg on bass, and Al Jackson Jr. on drums.

I’ve always (since the sixties) ‘known’ that Willie Mitchell’s tenorman was Fred Ford but I never knew how I knew. But when I was doing the research for this BFT, I found that I was always correct. Here’s a bit of Fred playing ‘Night train’ with some of the Willie Mitchell band:

Fred was born in 1930 in Memphis. He worked as a young man with Johnny Hodges, Earl Bostic, Paul Desmond, Pete Brown and Benny Carter. In the early fifties, he joined Johnny Otis and recorded with Gatemouth Brown, Big Mama Thornton, B B King, Lightnin’ Hopkins, Junior Parker, Jerry Lee Lewis and was on Rufus Thomas’ ‘Do the funky chicken’ (YAY!!!). He also produced Phineas Newborn’s album ‘Solo piano’.

This track is NOT typical of the material in the LP, nor of what Mitchell’s band usually did, which is more like the video. It’s implied by pretty well everything Mitchell did but this is one of a few examples where he lets one of the band go beyond what was commercial. For me, those few occasions are fine, but not everyone wants to listen to a bunch of sixties covers done up Memphis style, which is what most of his albums are. However, there are quite a few nice tenor solos by Fred in this album.

7 Sherman Williams – Dancin’ the bop – Plymouth 1050. LA, early 1949. Taken from ‘The chronological Sherman Williams 1947-1951’ – Blues & Rhythm Classics 5076.

Sherman Williams (as), unknown ts, bars, p, b, d.

Sherman Williams was kinda between bands at the time of this recording, having recently relocated to LA, where most of his musicians and his lady vocalist had left for more lucrative jobs, so the people on this single are unknown. His earlier band was based in, of all places, Nashville. No wonder no one ever heard of him! Sherman was a stone Johnny Hodges man, one of very few to have been influenced by Hodges (the only other I know is Holley Dismukes, who played in the Todd Rhodes band). It’s Sherman’s Nashville band on the two bonus tracks.

Really, this is an R&B band playing bebop, which the guys probably weren’t terribly comfortable with, but did it because it was the commercial thing at the time. I find it very interesting from that point of view, even though Sherman doesn’t solo on it.

8 Clifford Jordan(!) – I’ve got a feeling for you – Vortex 2010. New York 25 Oct 1966. Produced by Arif Mardin. From ‘Soul fountain’.

Jimmy Owens (tp, flh), Julian Priester (tb), Clifford Jordan (p), Frank Owens (org), Ben Tucker (b), Bobby Durham (d), Orestes Vilato, Joe Wohletz (perc)

Well, I didn’t think anyone would get this J. No story here; it’s there just to fool you.

I got this album, which has been reissued on Wounded Bird and more recently on Japanese Atlantic, mainly for John Patton, who is on the other session making it up. But I like it all a lot. Very much a soul jazz item, but Clifford’s piano part isn’t quite straightforward, it seems to me; there’s a slight delay in there which gives it a different feel to normal records of this type. The tune was composed by Clifford and Shirley Jordan.

More in a few minutes, after I've fed the dog.

MG

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Part 2

9 Arthur Prysock – All my lovin’ was in vain – Milestone 9157. New York, Dec 1987. Produced by Bob Porter. From ‘Today’s love songs, tomorrow’s blues’.

Arthur Prysock (voc), Red Prysock (ts), Lloyd Wilson (org), Randy Caldwell (g), Leon Lee Dorsey (b), Don Williams (d)

I LURVE Arthur Prysock. He was one of the few musicians who had hits in the forties, fifties, sixties and seventies. Gene Ammons was another and, like Jug, Arthur Prysock was loved in the black community. I saw him with most of this band in Newark in 1990 in the ballroom of the Hyatt Hotel. The place was packed. There were only three other white people there, one of them a little old lady who’d been let out of her nursing home specially for the gig, because Prysock was an old friend (Bird was an old friend, too, and Bobby Bland and King Curtis). There was much dancing; not jigging around, real dancing; foxtrots; quicksteps done with such grace by a black couple in their sixties that I just gasped. And there was so much love there! This was the last album Arthur made.

I love this track; it’s such an easeful way of telling a story. And a deep way, too; the humour makes it extra-poignant. REALLY laughing to keep from crying.

10 Cab Calloway – St Louis blues – Brunswick 4936. New York, 24 July 1930. Taken from ‘The early years 1930-1934’ – JSP.

Roger Qunicy Dickerson, Lammar Wright & Reuben Reeves (tp), De Priest Wheeler & prob. Harry White (tb), William Thornton Blue (cl,as), Andrew Brown (ts, b-cl), Walter "Foots" Thomas (ts,as,bar, fl), Earres Prince (p), Morris White (bj) Jimmy Smith (tu,b), Leroy Maxey (d), Cab Calloway (vcl)

‘Surely everyone would recognise Cab?’ I thought. Well, I didn’t care, I just love this band so much. But not many did. This cut is from Cab’s first session as a bandleader. Start as you mean to go on One reason I picked this track out of over 200 is because it shows that Cab could outsing almost anyone.

But this is interesting, as well as fantastic. The song is a woman’s song. It makes no sense for a man to sing those words. So Cab didn’t; he invented some outrageously Cab-like words. And sang them like a madman! Back in the day when I was first listening to jazz, I read some critic complaining that jazz singers didn’t improvise the words. Well, James Brown did and I think Cab did on this. If he’d sat down calmly beforehand and worked out what he was going to sing, I think he’d have written ‘I’m going to St Louis, to get my hambone boiled’ which would have made more sense than Chicago.

The trombone solo is probably by De Priest Wheeler, but I can’t find any indication of which of the trumpeters takes the trumpet solo.

11 Illinois Jacquet – I’m a fool to want you – Prestige 7629. RVG’s, 25 Mar 1969. Produced by Don Schlitten. Engineer, George Klabin (!!!) From ‘The soul explosion’.

Illinois Jacquet (ts), Joe Newman, Ernie Royal, Russell Jacquet (tp), Matthew Gee (tb), Frank Foster (ts), Cecil Payne (bars), Milt Buckner (org), Wally Richardson (g), Al Lucas (b), Al Foster (d)

I THINK the other horn players are not on this track but every time I listen to it I’m so carried away by Milt and Illinois that I don’t hear anyone else but them and the rhythm section. So I don’t know if they’re there quietly in the background or not.

This album is one of the two greatest that Illinois recorded. (I can’t ever make up my mind between this and ‘Go power’.) ‘Soul explosion’ is the right title, even for this incredible ballad performance, which just smears emotion all over the walls. I don’t know how anyone can stand to play with this much soul.

(I’ve been told that Rudy wouldn’t let Don smoke marijuana at sessions. Maybe that’s why someone else was at the controls?)

12 Grady Tate – You go to my head – Milestone 9193. New York, 13-15 May 1991. Produced by Bob Porter. From ‘TNT’.

Grady Tate (voc), Bill Easley (ts, fl, sops), Mike Renzi (kbds), Ron Carter (b), Dennis Mackeral (d)

This stumped everyone, which surprised me, because I know Jim Sangrey has some of Grady's vocal LPs. I love the way Grady’s voice feels on this. The entire album is great, but this… Nuff sed.

This was the first Grady Tate album I bought. It’s so great that I could never bring myself to buy another.

13 Buster Bailey – Memphis blues – Felsted 7003. New York, 13 Feb 1958. Produced by Stanley Dance. From ‘All about Memphis’; taken from ‘The complete Felsted mainstream collection’.

Buster Bailey (cl), Red Richards (p), Gene Ramey (b), Jimmy Crawford (d)

I got this Felsted collection several months ago and this track just stood up and screamed at me. Buster had a long career working with many of the top bands in the period since the early twenties but I’ve noted that some people didn’t think much of his playing.

Buster was always a sideman, never (or seldom) a leader. This album was the first session to really showcase him. And there’s something here akin to the Dave Bartholomew and Cab Calloway tracks – let’s show ‘em!

14 The Clovers – Blue velvet – Atlantic 1052. New York, 16 Dec 1954. Taken from ‘The Platinum collection’.

The Clovers: John ‘Buddy’ Bailey, Billy Mitchell, Matthew McQuater, Harold Lucas, Harold Winley (voc), Bill Harris (g), with Sam ‘The Man’ Taylor (ts), others unknown.

This one’s in here for the same reason Grady Tate’s here, the lovely vocal; but also as a counterweight to the very ‘sophisticated’ approach to a ballad in the next track, as well as the great work by Sam ‘The Man’ Taylor. The jazz discography project’s Atlantic discography puts all the band down as unknown. Two fairly reliable sources give different people. Unca Marvy’s R&B page says Sam but the sleeve note of Willis Jackson’s ‘On my own’ claims it’s Gator. Willis also did session work with R&B groups at Atlantic, but for me, this is Sam. But, you know, it COULD be Gator. It could also be Budd Johnson, as Jim and Jeff suggested.

15 Jimmy Smith – You’ve changed – Milestone 9207. Hollywood, 12-14 Jan 1993. Produced by Johnny Pate. From ‘Sum serious blues’.

Jimmy Smith (org), George Bohannon (tb), Maurice Spears (b tb), Oscar Brashear (tp), Buddy Collette (as), Herman Riley (ts), Ernie Fields Jr (bars), Phil Upchurch (g), Andy Simpkins (b), Michael Baker (d), Marlena Shaw (voc).

Well, the last story is told by Marlena Shaw. I’ve dug her intro to this for years. Forget about JOS and the others, this is Marlena’s outrageous track and brings us back to telling a story that’s completely different to what the composers of the songs intended.

Bonus tracks

B1 Sherman Williams – Keep your man at home – Bullet 276. Nashville, 1947. Taken from ‘The chronological Sherman Williams 1947-1951’ – Blues & Rhythm Classics 5076.

Sherman Williams (as), Charles Gillum (tp), William Jones (ts), Ed ‘Skippy’ Brooks (p), James Brown (b), Alvin Woods (d), Iona Wade (voc).

B2 Sherman Williams – Reminiscing blues – Foto 15. Nashville, 1947. Taken from ‘The chronological Sherman Williams 1947-1951’ – Blues & Rhythm Classics 5076.

Personnel probably as above.

This is really an extraordinary little band. While there’s nothing earth-shaking about it, it’s very original. The riffs behind the vocals are all not the usual sort of stuff that jump bands played in those days, which were usually based on the ideas of Maxwell Davis, Dave Bartholomew or Jesse Stone. I guess that comes of them being in a place far removed from the mainstreams of R&B activity. Because they were so out of it, I thought it would be interesting – at least for some – to include a couple more tracks.

Charles Gillum later moved on to the Roy Milton band (Foto was one of Milton’s labels), while Skippy Brooks recorded as a single for Peacock. So did Iona Wade, who worked with ex-Milton tenor player Bill Gaither, then later with Jay McShann, then James Moody (the indirect Gillespie connection).

After several years in LA, Williams returned to Nashville and formed a band which included Bobby Hebb. James Brown DIDN’T become a famous singer/bandleader

MG

[jeffcrom]

Wow - quite a BFT, MG! I want to go back and listen again now.

[Hot Ptah]

Yes, this is one of the more amazing BFTs ever. Now that I know who I have been listening to, I want to go back and listen with this Reveal in hand.

That is a great story about Arthur Prysock in Newark!

[NIS]

"Revelation" was a good discription. You obviously put alot of thought into this BFT and did a great job of telling us about it.

Thanks very much.

[Jim R]

7 Sherman Williams – Dancin’ the bop – Plymouth 1050. LA, early 1949. Taken from ‘The chronological Sherman Williams 1947-1951’ – Blues & Rhythm Classics 5076.

Sherman Williams (as), unknown ts, bars, p, b, d.

Sherman Williams was kinda between bands at the time of this recording, having recently relocated to LA, where most of his musicians and his lady vocalist had left for more lucrative jobs, so the people on this single are unknown. His earlier band was based in, of all places, Nashville. No wonder no one ever heard of him! Sherman was a stone Johnny Hodges man, one of very few to have been influenced by Hodges (the only other I know is Holley Dismukes, who played in the Todd Rhodes band). It’s Sherman’s Nashville band on the two bonus tracks.

Really, this is an R&B band playing bebop, which the guys probably weren’t terribly comfortable with, but did it because it was the commercial thing at the time. I find it very interesting from that point of view, even though Sherman doesn’t solo on it.

Well, this track continues to bring up contrasts in our analysis, MG. Not only does the head not remind me of "Now's The Time", I don't hear anything here resembling bebop. I hear some chops, but they sound to me like R&B chops.

Anyway, there was definitely some fun listening here, and I like the way you added some obscure artists into the mix. I think it's great when we can get beyond straight "jazz" on BFT's.

I think my favorites on this one were the Bartholomew and the Clovers tracks.

Thanks again for putting it all together.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

7 Sherman Williams – Dancin’ the bop – Plymouth 1050. LA, early 1949. Taken from ‘The chronological Sherman Williams 1947-1951’ – Blues & Rhythm Classics 5076.

Sherman Williams (as), unknown ts, bars, p, b, d.

Sherman Williams was kinda between bands at the time of this recording, having recently relocated to LA, where most of his musicians and his lady vocalist had left for more lucrative jobs, so the people on this single are unknown. His earlier band was based in, of all places, Nashville. No wonder no one ever heard of him! Sherman was a stone Johnny Hodges man, one of very few to have been influenced by Hodges (the only other I know is Holley Dismukes, who played in the Todd Rhodes band). It’s Sherman’s Nashville band on the two bonus tracks.

Really, this is an R&B band playing bebop, which the guys probably weren’t terribly comfortable with, but did it because it was the commercial thing at the time. I find it very interesting from that point of view, even though Sherman doesn’t solo on it.

Well, this track continues to bring up contrasts in our analysis, MG. Not only does the head not remind me of "Now's The Time", I don't hear anything here resembling bebop. I hear some chops, but they sound to me like R&B chops.

Anyway, there was definitely some fun listening here, and I like the way you added some obscure artists into the mix. I think it's great when we can get beyond straight "jazz" on BFT's.

I think my favorites on this one were the Bartholomew and the Clovers tracks.

Thanks again for putting it all together.

Yeah, OK, we can agree to disagree, but Sherman Williams thought it was bop

Glad you thought it was fun and interesting.

MG

[Jim R]

7 Sherman Williams – Dancin’ the bop – Plymouth 1050. LA, early 1949. Taken from ‘The chronological Sherman Williams 1947-1951’ – Blues & Rhythm Classics 5076.

Sherman Williams (as), unknown ts, bars, p, b, d.

Sherman Williams was kinda between bands at the time of this recording, having recently relocated to LA, where most of his musicians and his lady vocalist had left for more lucrative jobs, so the people on this single are unknown. His earlier band was based in, of all places, Nashville. No wonder no one ever heard of him! Sherman was a stone Johnny Hodges man, one of very few to have been influenced by Hodges (the only other I know is Holley Dismukes, who played in the Todd Rhodes band). It’s Sherman’s Nashville band on the two bonus tracks.

Really, this is an R&B band playing bebop, which the guys probably weren’t terribly comfortable with, but did it because it was the commercial thing at the time. I find it very interesting from that point of view, even though Sherman doesn’t solo on it.

Well, this track continues to bring up contrasts in our analysis, MG. Not only does the head not remind me of "Now's The Time", I don't hear anything here resembling bebop. I hear some chops, but they sound to me like R&B chops.

Anyway, there was definitely some fun listening here, and I like the way you added some obscure artists into the mix. I think it's great when we can get beyond straight "jazz" on BFT's.

I think my favorites on this one were the Bartholomew and the Clovers tracks.

Thanks again for putting it all together.

Yeah, OK, we can agree to disagree, but Sherman Williams thought it was bop

You're kidding, right? I mean... what did this guy think?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWQd6FdT9Yo

Song title containing "bop" = "bebop"? I think not.

You added: "...which the guys probably weren’t terribly comfortable with, but did it because it was the commercial thing at the time. I find it very interesting from that point of view, even though Sherman doesn’t solo on it."

So, you seem to be either forming your own opinion based on something you're hearing, or there was something written in the liners that led you to this idea. Either way, I'd honestly (and sincerely) like to know why this music should be considered "bebop". To my ears, the bari solo comes a little closer to the realm of bebop phrasing than the trumpet, but it isn't close enough to make me want to say that "this is an R&B band playing bebop". I just don't hear it.

By they way, wasn't the term "bop" the commercial thing at the time, moreso than the actual musical form?

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Gene Vincent and other R&R 'boppers' were several years later.

Bop was a commercial (not VERY commercial, but a bit) thing in the late 40s in black communities. It wasn't unknown for R&B bands to play bop. 'The hucklebuck' I'm sure you'll know, was a hit by Paul Williams, Roy Milton and Lionel Hampton - with a very boppish vocal by Betty Carter. If you've heard Joe Liggins' 'Gal with a whole lotta loot', which wasn't a hit, you'll know that was based on 'Scrapple from the apple'. Some of Marion Abernathy's recordings were quite boppish - 'Undecided' springs to mind immediately.

I don't want to get into an argument about this but I think that, at the time, the boundaries between bop, R&B and soul jazz weren't very clear and that was particularly so in the black community.

MG

[Hot Ptah]

I find Track #8, by Clifford Jordan, really interesting. I looked up this album and it seems to be an anomaly in Clifford Jordan's career, a successful soul jazz recording. One of his next studio albums, "Glass Bead Game", was about as far from soul jazz as you can get, for example.

I also did not know that Clifford Jordan played piano, or had ever recorded on it. It sounds to me like he is playing Shorty Long's hit single, "Function at the Junction", on piano.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

That Shorty Long track is one I've never heard. It hit the chart the same month 'Soul fountain' was recorded, so it could be he had it in his head.

Must have a look on YouTube and see if I can hear it.

MG

[Jim R]

Gene Vincent and other R&R 'boppers' were several years later.

Bop was a commercial (not VERY commercial, but a bit) thing in the late 40s in black communities. It wasn't unknown for R&B bands to play bop. 'The hucklebuck' I'm sure you'll know, was a hit by Paul Williams, Roy Milton and Lionel Hampton - with a very boppish vocal by Betty Carter. If you've heard Joe Liggins' 'Gal with a whole lotta loot', which wasn't a hit, you'll know that was based on 'Scrapple from the apple'. Some of Marion Abernathy's recordings were quite boppish - 'Undecided' springs to mind immediately.

I don't want to get into an argument about this but I think that, at the time, the boundaries between bop, R&B and soul jazz weren't very clear and that was particularly so in the black community.

MG

First of all, MG, let's call it a debate. I don't care much for arguments either. Not trying to attack you, I just didn't understand your view, and you really didn't say much to explain where it came from (as with your comment about the tune being similar to "Now's The Time"). I find this interesting, so please understand that I'm not questioning you for the sake of disagreeing or arguing. You made what was to me a questionable statement, and I'm simply challenging it.

I realize that Gene Vincent came later. I was using him as an example of why your previous answer about Williams using "bop" in the title was less than convincing to me. Looking for another answer here.

Your comments about the overlaps of black musical forms from that era aside, what is it about this Williams recording that puts it in the category of bebop? Did you get something from the liner notes in this regard, or did you form the opinion yourself? You're stating it as though it's obvious, but you still haven't explained it.

I'd love for someone else to chime in on this subject also.

at the time, the boundaries between bop, R&B and soul jazz weren't very clear and that was particularly so in the black community.

You mention "soul jazz" in reference to that era (1949 being the reference point here). When did the musical style "soul jazz" originate? Also, when did the term "soul jazz" originate?

[jeffcrom]

I'd love for someone else to chime in on this subject also.

It certainly isn't bop the way I think of it, but it's touched by bop, and MG is probably right when he says that they thought they were playing bop, or at least boppishly. The bari player's triplets sound like he's trying to play "modern," and I wonder if he thought his "Merry-Go-Round Broke Down" quote was the kind of thing that a bebopper would do. The trumpet player sounds more like Eldridge than Gillespie, but things like his little "bebop turn" (at around 1:11), a few of his more "daring" note choices, and the Charlie Parker phrase (admittedly one of Bird's more conservative signature licks) at the end of his first chorus are clues that he was trying to play like a bopper, at least a little bit. And listen to the piano behind the horn riff at around 1:41 - he just might be a real bebopper.

Jim is probably right in saying that the term "soul jazz" was not in use at the time, but I don't think that invalidates MG's point. Substitute the term "jump blues" if you wish. MG's example of the Hampton band is right on target - in the late 40's they were a melting pot of swing, bop, and R & B.

So you're both right. Now you kids shut up and bring me a whiskey and soda.

[Jim R]

Thank you Jeff. I hadn't picked up on the specifics you mention (except for the quote, which I didn't find to be so unusual in an R&B setting), but I'll listen again with those things in mind. Maybe we can all agree that saying "this was an R&B band playing bebop" was a bit of an exaggeration. And yes, I think "jump blues" is more apt in this context.

So, where do you keep the whiskey?

[tkeith]

Gah! I *have* Soul Fountain. Shame on me. Clifford is one of 'my guys'. I know there was no solo, but I should have had that.

[JSngry]

Some questions about some very interesting selections:

1. How did Dave Bartholomew sound so much like Charlie Shavers?
2. What caused that The Movers cut to have the on-again/off-again reverb that had me wondering if this was a DJ-type thing. That's some wack shit!
3. Still not totally impossible that it's Johnny Beecher on the Willie Mitchell cut? Studio dates can yield some surprises, what with business working in mysterious ways, and this SURE sounds like Plas Johnson to me. but, not necessarily, apparently?
4. Was Sherman Williams female, or was that just a bad hair day?
5. Do I have that Clifford Jordan album since the late 1970? Yes. Have I ever paid that particular cut much attention? No?
6. Grady Tate, eh? OUTSTANDING! His voice has, understandably, deepened in tone since the stuff I have, and he's "pronounceably" more Eckstine-ian, all of which are working to his favor here. In fact, my original impression of a "post-Liberation Eckstine" rings even truer now that I know it's Grady Tate.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Some questions about some very interesting selections:

1. How did Dave Bartholomew sound so much like Charlie Shavers?
2. What caused that The Movers cut to have the on-again/off-again reverb that had me wondering if this was a DJ-type thing. That's some wack shit!
3. Still not totally impossible that it's Johnny Beecher on the Willie Mitchell cut? Studio dates can yield some surprises, what with business working in mysterious ways, and this SURE sounds like Plas Johnson to me. but, not necessarily, apparently?
4. Was Sherman Williams female, or was that just a bad hair day?
5. Do I have that Clifford Jordan album since the late 1970? Yes. Have I ever paid that particular cut much attention? No?
6. Grady Tate, eh? OUTSTANDING! His voice has, understandably, deepened in tone since the stuff I have, and he's "pronounceably" more Eckstine-ian, all of which are working to his favor here. In fact, my original impression of a "post-Liberation Eckstine" rings even truer now that I know it's Grady Tate.

1 Shavers was very influenced by Armstrong, I read decdes ago. Bartholomew had the same teacher as Armstrong. Shavers was always a bit of a 'showoff' and that's what Bartholomew was doing on that cut. But really, I dunno.

2 Too technical for me.

3 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Ford_(musician)

At the bottom of the page, this album is mentioned specifically.

4 That was his singist, Iona Wade. There's a photo of the band in the sleeve note, but probably not big enough to put on the front.

5 Yeah, well...

6 I haven't heard any of his Skye albums.

MG

[Jim R]

Gene Vincent and other R&R 'boppers' were several years later.

Bop was a commercial (not VERY commercial, but a bit) thing in the late 40s in black communities. It wasn't unknown for R&B bands to play bop. 'The hucklebuck' I'm sure you'll know, was a hit by Paul Williams, Roy Milton and Lionel Hampton - with a very boppish vocal by Betty Carter. If you've heard Joe Liggins' 'Gal with a whole lotta loot', which wasn't a hit, you'll know that was based on 'Scrapple from the apple'. Some of Marion Abernathy's recordings were quite boppish - 'Undecided' springs to mind immediately.

I don't want to get into an argument about this but I think that, at the time, the boundaries between bop, R&B and soul jazz weren't very clear and that was particularly so in the black community.

MG

First of all, MG, let's call it a debate. I don't care much for arguments either. Not trying to attack you, I just didn't understand your view, and you really didn't say much to explain where it came from (as with your comment about the tune being similar to "Now's The Time"). I find this interesting, so please understand that I'm not questioning you for the sake of disagreeing or arguing. You made what was to me a questionable statement, and I'm simply challenging it.

I realize that Gene Vincent came later. I was using him as an example of why your previous answer about Williams using "bop" in the title was less than convincing to me. Looking for another answer here.

Your comments about the overlaps of black musical forms from that era aside, what is it about this Williams recording that puts it in the category of bebop? Did you get something from the liner notes in this regard, or did you form the opinion yourself? You're stating it as though it's obvious, but you still haven't explained it.

I'd love for someone else to chime in on this subject also.

>at the time, the boundaries between bop, R&B and soul jazz weren't very clear and that was particularly so in the black community.

You mention "soul jazz" in reference to that era (1949 being the reference point here). When did the musical style "soul jazz" originate? Also, when did the term "soul jazz" originate?

Jim is probably right in saying that the term "soul jazz" was not in use at the time, but I don't think that invalidates MG's point.

By the way, I wasn't asking those questions simply to suggest that you were using the wrong term, MG. I'm still curious to know what you think, particularly with regard to the second question, which I would think ought to have a more concrete answer.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

According to Bob Porter, Soul Jazz as a style went back to Ammons/Quebec/Jacquet/Jaws/WB Davis in the late forties/early fifties.

As a term, I think it started in the mid-fifties, but it could have been earlier.

I think those were the questions, but I got a bit mixed up with all your posts

MG

[Jim R]

Thanks, MG. Hope you don't feel like I'm grilling you, I just thought it would be interesting to try to get to the bottom of some things that seemed a bit vague to me (sometimes there are no clear answers, and things have to remain vague, of course). Anyway, I like to be enlightened (and enlighten others) on subjects of great interest, whenever possible.

The remaining questions were with regard to your reference to track 7 as "bebop", and whether your opinion was formed independently or based on something you read (perhaps in the disc's liners). Jeff has provided his take on the specifics of this track as it pertains to the "bebop" description, but we haven't yet had yours. And since you brought it up...

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Jeff put it a lot better than I could ever have done.

Also, I can confirm that there's nothing in the sleeve notes about bebop.

MG

[Dan Gould]

Meant to chime in to thank MG for his compilation; its always interesting to read the commentary of the compiler and Allan really puts in a lot of comment. (FWIW I fall more on the Jim R. side of the be-boppin' R&Bers question)

And this really was a great example of the "at least one track of a BFT will be something you already own" rule. In my case, its three: The Clifford Jordan, Jimmy Smith, and Jacquet.

But frankly most aggravating is how I missed Grady Tate's track. I've only heard his vocals on one LP, singing "Funny Valentine" on one of Sonny Stitt's last records. And I was listening to that disc not a month ago. ARGH.

Oh, and I think I need to track down that Arthur Prysock LP.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Meant to chime in to thank MG for his compilation; its always interesting to read the commentary of the compiler and Allan really puts in a lot of comment. (FWIW I fall more on the Jim R. side of the be-boppin' R&Bers question)

And this really was a great example of the "at least one track of a BFT will be something you already own" rule. In my case, its three: The Clifford Jordan, Jimmy Smith, and Jacquet.

But frankly most aggravating is how I missed Grady Tate's track. I've only heard his vocals on one LP, singing "Funny Valentine" on one of Sonny Stitt's last records. And I was listening to that disc not a month ago. ARGH.

Oh, and I think I need to track down that Arthur Prysock LP.

Saul Goode, Dan. And cheap at half the price.

Funny, I didn't think many people would have the Clifford Jordan; I assumed hard core jazz characters would shy away from a title (and sleeve) like that. So the answer is that 3 people have it but don't listen to it

What Stitt is Grady on? 'TNT' must have been at least ten years later than that and, if his voice changed, well...

'TNT' will be cheap too and that Saul Goode too.

No one wants to by old Milestone CDs

MG

[Dan Gould]

Recorded 1980, originally for a Japanese label. Tate sings on two tracks, IIRC, and both are trio, no Stiff.

Edited May 4, 2013 by Dan Gould

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Thanks Dan - just got a copy for under a tenner at Amazon UK - next price offered was £57.00, then £112 !!!

MG