Abuse of the Phrase "Bossa Nova" by Gringos in the Early 1960s

[JSngry]

 

24 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

Exotica was a  contrived genre that created a fantasy of a tropical paradise.  It freely borrowed from jazz, classical, Latin, Brasilian, the South Seas, the Far East, Africa, South America, etc., and put them all in a blender, in varying ratios.  It did not try to pass itself off as being any one of these.

Oh, it had nothing to do with tapping into the fantasies of GIs returning from the "Orient" with visions of private, unchecked takery of both land and flesh still dancing in their heads? Seriously?

28 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

Similarly, mid-century cocktail culture was was using a spirit from the Caribbean - rum -  to create cocktails linked to the south seas.  Pure fantasy and imagination, not based in reality.

I kinda think the creating a culturally appropriated permission structure to get drunk and screw is very much based in reality. People of integrity just do it without the facades.

[Teasing the Korean]

1 minute ago, JSngry said:

Oh, it had nothing to do with tapping into the fantasies of GIs returning from the "Orient" with visions of private, unchecked takery of both land and flesh still dancing in their heads? Seriously?

I'll be more than delighted to discuss and debate exotica with you in a dedicated thread, if you wish to start one.  This thread is about misuse of the phrase "Bossa Nova," and we are getting off topic.

[JSngry]

30 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

By contrast, creating a contrived dance called the "Bossa Nova" in the US at a time when the Brasilian musical genre known as Bossa Nova was at is peak was entirely misleading.

No alcohol, no screwing, just Eydie Gormet. If you're gullible enough to get misled by Eydie Gormet (much lest allow her to lead you down the path of culturally appropriated drunking and screwing), that's on you. although Steve and Edye made a decent enough Poppa Nova record with Luiz Bonfa, and her records with Los Panchos have been given pretty serious cred by people who go for that. I think she's a little too much "too much", but...not for me to say on that one.

36 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

And your dance analogy was flawed.  A starving person would not misinterpret the dance called the Mashed Potato as food, nor would a primatologist confuse the dance called The Monkey with the animal.  By contrast, someone could reasonably confuse the music called Bossa Nova with the dance called the Bossa Nova.

Unless you're Barry Rogers or somebody with that set of freak skills, I defy you to tell exactly what music is being played by the way people are dancing without hearing the actual music. Steps is steps, and a good dancer will know the steps. and an average-or-worse dancer will go with what they know, some or none of what they hear. So this person who would be "reasonably confused" by this is reasonably an idiot. In ballet and other art dancing, yes, dancing looks like music sounds. Otherwise,,,please.

[Teasing the Korean]

Just now, JSngry said:

No alcohol, no screwing, just Eydie Gormet. If you're gullible enough to get misled by Eydie Gormet (much lest allow her to lead you down the path of culturally appropriated drunking and screwing), that's on you. although Steve and Edye made a decent enough Poppa Nova record with Luiz Bonfa, and her records with Los Panchos have been given pretty serious cred by people who go for that. I think she's a little too much "too much", but...not for me to say on that one.

Actually, Eydie's Blame It On the Bossa Nova LP is pretty good by 1963 US standards, save for the title track. They wisely placed the title track at the end of a side, making it very convenient to avoid.

While there are no Brasilians that I could find on the album, the players are at least attempting to play something in the neighborhood of Bossa Nova, unlike on the title track.

And while the LP does not feature Luiz Bonfa, it also does not have Steve Lawrence, which we may agree is a good thing.  

[JSngry]

41 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

So, I consider there to be a huge difference between exotica as a genre and the Bossa Nova as a dance.  YMMV.  

In the same way that I consider there to be a huge difference between broccoli as a vegetable and mustard as a condiment, I think we have an agreement!

[Teasing the Korean]

1 minute ago, JSngry said:

In the same way that I consider there to be a huge difference between broccoli as a vegetable and mustard as a condiment, I think we have an agreement!

We agree!

[JSngry]

1 minute ago, Teasing the Korean said:

 it also does not have Steve Lawrence, which we may agree is a good thing.  

I like Steve Lawrence blending with his wife. Is there a cocktail to be had there? the "Steve & Eydie"? Or a deli sandwhich? Or a cologne?

Or a specific drunken screwing move?

Blame it on the Steve-a-Nova!

[Teasing the Korean]

Just now, JSngry said:

I like Steve Lawrence blending with his wife. Is there a cocktail to be had there? the "Steve & Eydie"? Or a deli sandwhich? Or a cologne?

Never cared for him, neither his singing nor his choice of material.  Eydie was hit or miss, but I do like her earlier LPs that had more of a pseudo-jazz bent. 

[Daniel A]

TTK, what are your feelings towards early "American" bossa (~1963) that is not advertised as such? It doesn't claim to be anything else than perhaps "jazz". 

 

The rest of Nancy Wilson's 'Moon River' doesn't really live up to the fantastic intro, which I think displays some of the hallmarks of my favorite type of American bossa; it has the rental car ad vibe, totally void of any sense of melancholy. 

Edited May 28, 2021 by Daniel A

[JSngry]

Oh, btw, I am not at all opposed by the music of Exotica, nor of the American Bosser Nover.

But that's in spite of the numerous, and imo obvious, cultural factors surrounding it, including at times, the music. Fantasy, my ass. Take the land, take the women, kill the men, take all you want, ah, those were the days!

An honest appraisal of the music without an honest appraisal of the image is not possible.

and yeah, jazz, I'm talking to you too. For that matter, all "product" in general.

you want to talk about "now more than ever", here we are.

[Teasing the Korean]

2 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Oh, btw, I am not at all opposed by the music of Exotica, nor of the American Bosser Nover.

But that's inspite of the numerous, and imo obvious, cultural issues surround it, including at times, the music. Fantasy, my ass. Take the land, take the women, kill the men, all you want, ah, those were the days!

I'll be more than delighted to discuss and debate exotica with you in a dedicated thread, if you wish to start one.

[JSngry]

I do not, here is fine.

I mean, cultural appropriation is the subject. If it is not, then this thread has no meaning, as the final answer is - make that money, DUH!

[Teasing the Korean]

7 minutes ago, JSngry said:

I do not, here is fine.

I mean, cultural appropriation is the subject. If it is not, then this thread has no meaning, as the final answer is - make that money, DUH!

OK, but don't feel hurt if I don't engage on the topic here.

Edited May 28, 2021 by Teasing the Korean

[JSngry]

Again, you mean?

If cultural appropriate is not the issue, what is? Is it that it's all bad music? Well, some is, some isn't?

It's "what were they thinking", then again, money. DUH!

If it's "is it offensive?", then...why? Is it offensive to make bad music? Well, it SHOULD be, but in this world, we have shown that there's not a lot of traction in that offense without some other signifier being attached.

So again - If cultural appropriate is not the issue, what is?

and if cultural appropriation is the issue, why limit it to one narrow spectrum of American-made music when there is SO much upon which to draw? There's not enough server capacity to house all the dedicated threads that would require!

Or else we can all go to a _____ restaurant, get drunk on ____ and go home and screw (somebody!), because we'd not have the guts to do it otherwise.

[Daniel A]

Don't derail the thread. I want to discuss American Bossa. 

[Teasing the Korean]

2 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Again, you mean?

If cultural appropriate is not the issue, what is? Is it that it's all bad music? Well, some is, some isn't?

It's "what were they thinking", then again, money. DUH!

If it's "is it offensive?", then...why? Is it offensive to make bad music? Well, it SHOULD be, but in this world, we have shown that there's not a lot of traction in that offense without some other signifier being attached.

So again - If cultural appropriate is not the issue, what is?

and if cultural appropriation is the issue, why limit it to one narrow spectrum of American-made music when there is SO much upon which to draw? There's not enough server capacity to house all the dedicated threads that would require!

Or else we can all go to a _____ restaurant, get drunk on ____ and go home and screw (somebody!), because we'd not have the guts to do it otherwise.

I'll be more than delighted to discuss and debate exotica with you in a dedicated thread, if you wish to start one.

[JSngry]

God, it's the bot!

5 minutes ago, Daniel A said:

Don't derail the thread. I want to discuss American Bossa. 

Two words- Zoot Sims. Not a Brazilian in sight except as composers. Good records, if a little sleepy.

Two more words - Coleman Hawkins. Same thing, only far fewer Brazilian composers.

Two more words - Willie Rodriguez, who turns up on a lot of records of this ilk of this time. That guy played a lot of gigs.

Oh, Jobim's earliest American records, like with Nelson Riddle charts. Definitely a bit crossover-intentioned.

[Teasing the Korean]

18 minutes ago, Daniel A said:

Don't derail the thread. I want to discuss American Bossa. 

To answer your question:  I don't have an issue with US albums from the era calling the music Bossa if the musicians were at least making at attempt at playing something roughly in the Bossa solar system.  Some of those records of course were better than others.

What I may not have clarified in my first post was that two of those albums - the Barney Kessel and Gene Ammons - are not Bossa at all, not even attempts, not anything. (Check them out if you can find them.) Those albums may be OK or good or great on their own terms, but they are mislabeled.  And I don't necessarily blame the musicians, as musicians in that era had little if any control over packaging and presentation.  It was likely the record labels that slapped on the phrase.

Edited May 28, 2021 by Teasing the Korean

[Daniel A]

Thanks for the reply. Although I was more thinking of the type of American bossa which neither tries being Brazilian, nor claims to be bossa nova. It almost has to be reworkings of other popular tunes, because if it's based on some real Brazilian composition it can't help being at least five percent Brazilian. 

But some things come close, like Oliver Nelson's/Hank Jones' 'Mas Que Nada', turned into a spy spoof movie soundtrack. 

 

 

[JSngry]

18 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

What I may not have clarified in my first post was that two of those albums - the Barney Kessel and Gene Ammons - are not Bossa at all, not even attempts, not anything. (Check them out if you can find them.) Those albums may be OK or good or great on their own terms, but they are mislabeled.  And I don't necessarily blame the musicians, as musicians in that era had little if any control over packaging and presentation.  It was likely the record labels that slapped on the phrase.

So they changed the Gene Ammons tilte to "Jungle Soul"? That's ok? What the hell is "jungle" music? This is not an Ellington tribute album, so...Is that like "Exotica" a fabricated illusion meant to feed primal sublimation/sexual permisson fantasies?

Yeah, that's probably problematic as well...and if so, how is it, in your words, "wisely retitled"?

Nothing to do with cultural appropriation/stereotyping (adding stereotyping to the list)? Seriously? Because otherwise, you're just at "record companies will do any damn thing to sell a record" and again - DUH!

 

[Daniel A]

Here's another favorite of mine from the good year of 1963, featuring the extremely un-Brazilian Elvin Jones on drums:

 

[JSngry]

3 minutes ago, Daniel A said:

Here's another favorite of mine from the good year of 1963, featuring the extremely un-Brazilian Elvin Jones on drums:

 

That's the American-patented Shuffle Bossa that shows up more than a few times on Blue Note over the years. Billy Higgins was really good at it.

[Teasing the Korean]

6 minutes ago, JSngry said:

So they changed the Gene Ammons tilte to "Jungle Soul"? That's ok?

There is track with that title on the album, but I don't know if Ammons titled it or if a label/publisher titled it. 

[JSngry]

That would make a difference, wouldn't it....

[Daniel A]

Yes, shuffle bossa has something to it. And the more shuffle, the better. 

"Bossa" playing often brought out the more restrained and easy going side of Oscar Peterson, which can be a pleasant change for those who are less engaged by his double-time playing. 

Edited May 28, 2021 by Daniel A