Michael Fitzgerald

My definition of a great thread does not require at all that it be "sustained" - in fact, when the pages get to be too high I think that's a deterrent. "What Are You Listening To Now" is actually something that I almost never look at (because my experience shows this to be a billion people each posting a single name or 3 names - no discussion at all, which is pretty much useless - to me. It serves perfectly the purpose of the thread, though.). So, I would never have known that there was any big avant garde aspect to that thread. But again, it doesn't surprise me because I have a gut feeling from seeing avant garde discussion all over this board that there are folks who are into that stuff. Which is great. The Listening Now thread is extremely "sustained" - 272 pages at last check. It's not at all a great thread, in my view. To me, a great thread is about quality, not quantity. It could be just two posts. Actually, it could be just one post. That one post would be very informed, well thought-out, clearly written, and basically - inspired. Of course, usually when that happens, even if there is nothing to say, someone will post if only to say, "Wow. Nice post." When there's great music to talk about, you share it and spread it around (at least that's my view as an educator). If anything, segregating avant garde topics will lead to less wide discussion - for exactly the reason why only 52 names have created 81 pages of Funny Rat. More than HALF of those folks have only 4 or fewer posts. Wow. That they post at all tells me there is interest. But that they post so little, I think, indicates a problem. And plenty of those 29 are names that I recognize as "Supa Groovers" or "Brides Of Funkenstein" or "Big Mamma Jammas" or "All That AND The Bag Of Chips" or whatever the rankings are, not newbies or lurkers. I have my own opinions about which members usually end up elevating the quality of threads. I'm sure everyone else has their own opinions as well. Thanks to the posting list, I now learn that some of my own personal picks are practically or *completely* absent from the Funny Rat world. Boy, that's evidence to support my position. These are active members who love that kind of music and aren't participating. Get those avant garde threads out there in the open - in *every* appropriate forum. That way they will be seen and used. Mike

I completely disagree that "very few people" on this board have an interest in avant garde music. That's not at all what I have seen in my experience here. I recall seeing great threads about William Parker, Alvin Fielder, Matana Roberts, Matthew Shipp, and more. I just did a very quick and dirty count on members who participated in a few threads relating to so-called avant garde music and came up with over 100 (without even looking at the Funny Rat thread). I believe that separating out things (like the Funny Rat thread seems to have done) gives a very warped view of reality. You *think* that there are just a few people interested because you spend so much time sequestered together with them. I will leave it up to someone else to count up the number of people who have posted on the Funny Rat thread. My prediction is that it will be less than 100. But really, there are a lot of people (me, for one) who have never posted in the Funny Rat thread and yet are still interested in avant garde music. They may (as I do) have interests in a lot of other things too. It's not my primary focus. Having a variety of threads in their LOGICAL locations would just spread the word about this music even more. A reader who might never have heard of someone could see a name and get interested. And isn't that what should be happening? If you put all the avant garde music in its little cubbyhole and say "this is the scary difficult-to-understand music" - you're not going to encourage curious listeners. From my experience as a teacher, you follow the Mingus adage: Let my children hear music. Put it out there without categories and warnings and let them hear it. The ghetto is the *wrong* way to go. Segregation never! Integration now! When we let freedom ring, when we let it ring from every village and every hamlet, from every state and every city, from every forum and every thread, we will be able to speed up that day when all of God's children, black men and white men, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics, Sonny Clark and Peter Brotzmann, Jelly Roll Morton and Marilyn Crispell, will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the old Negro spiritual, "Free at last! free at last! thank God Almighty, we are free at last." Mike

At this point I'm not sure which one (or both) of the Jacobs were present. Obviously if someone can listen to the tape for piano that would help. Mike

I have not done serious research into this period, but here are some tidbits from my files for the period of 1967-69: 1967 - Club 43, Manchester, UK = Rollins, Alan Cooper, Ron Parry 1967 - Arnhem, Netherlands = Rollins, Pim Jacobs, Han Bennink (unk. b) 1967 - Both/And, SF = Rollins, Prince Lasha, Herbie Lewis, Beaver Harris 1967 - Penthouse, Seattle 1968 - Japan = Rollins, Larry Ridley, George Brown (unk. pianist, not Hugh Lawson) 1968 - Copenhagen = Rollins, Kenny Drew, NHOP, Albert Heath 1969 - Ronnie Scott's = Rollins, Stan Tracey, Tony Oxley (unk. b) 1969 - Whitney Museum, NYC = Rollins solo 1969 - UC Berkeley, CA = Rollins solo 1969 - Village Vanguard = Rollins, Albert Dailey, Wilbur Ware, Albert Heath (start of week) 1969 - Village Vanguard = Rollins, Albert Dailey, Walter Booker, Sonny Brown (end of week) 1969 - Philadelphia = Rollins, Albert Heath (others unk) 1969 - Town Hall, NYC = Rollins, Bill Lee, Lisle Atkinson, Richard Davis, Ron Carter, Michael Fleming, Buster Williams, Herbert Brown 1969 - Aqua Lounge, Philadelphia = Rollins, Albert Heath (others unk) 1969 - Jazz Workshop, SF First performance after 1970 I know is Kongsberg, Norway on June 25, 1971. Mike

BN 5051 was not released. Mike

Ahem, well, if the individual pictured is an avant garde musician with a recording or performance that needs discussing, I'd say Artists forum. If on the other hand, that's a politician (hard to tell with my glasses fogged up), then I'd go with Politics. If that's a discographer - man, I've been hanging around the wrong people. Mike And besides, I asked for something that can't fit into the existing structure of this board, not something that can't fit into her dress.

Disagree with labeling idea, too. For the same reasons. Why on earth would we need to label everything AG? Then BB (Bebop), SW (Swing), NO (New Orleans), CH (Chicago), BL (Blues), WC (West Coast), EC (East Coast), F (Funk), CL (Classical), PR (Progressive Rock), P (Punk), NW (New Wave), BA (Baroque), TT (Twelve Tone), MT (Microtonal), IC (Indian Classical), EM (Electronic Music), TF (Traditional Folk), C (Country), BG (Bluegrass), RB (Rhythm & Blues), and so on and on. That's just silly. All those things (and more) have been discussed here on the site before. And I go back to my point about artists and art that refuses to fit into the cookie cutter pigeonholes. I'm still waiting for someone to show me something that CAN'T fit in the existing structure of this board. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I really don't understand what the entire point is here. To keep "Avant Garde" discussion separated out of one's way if you don't want to read it? To draw attention to it if you do want to read it? As far as I can tell, if you had a thread in the Artists forum called "Peter Brotzmann" that would give a very good idea of what it contained. Like PB, read it; Don't, don't. How is this ANY different from a thread in the Artists forum called "Count Basie" or "Warne Marsh" or "Renee Rosnes"? I can see the problems some have with the "Funny Rat" thread - while it didn't start out that way, it has *become* a poorly labeled thread. So relabel it! It's too big because people seem to use it for purposes other than for what it was intended. So start new, more specific threads! How exactly are these things difficult to do? Mike

Affinity was a part of Charly - maybe some kind of legal action against their issues led to their downfall? Wouldn't surprise me. Mike

Fujioka p. 239 lists Alabama in "six" takes - #1-5 then the 4 + 5 splice. Only the last three have timings: #4 = 2:40; #5 = 2:23; #4+5 = 5:05. No indication of whether any of the earlier takes were complete or incomplete; they are simply marked as unissued. Mike

Now THAT's interesting - please tell more about Lockjaw's alterations to his horn, if you can - and where did you learn that? That puts his playing in a different light. Fascinating! Mike

Don't know if the first three takes of Alabama were complete or incomplete. Bruyninckx (& Lord) only shows take 4/5 and take 5 (as does Wild's online version). I'll check Fujioka when I get home, but it could well be the same as the rest. Mike

See Noal Cohen's Tiny Kahn discography at the www.JazzDiscography.com site for vol. 1 info - recording sequence, maybe not issue sequence for that particular CD. Mike

Yes, that was stupidity on my part. Obviously, the two tunes on Crusdaders records are the ones by Sample. Mike

To avoid pigeonholing, stereotyping, categorizing, ghetto-izing, etc., all of which are problematic exercises, I think segregating by "style" shouldn't be done. The best description of Albert Ayler's music is "Albert Ayler Music"; the best description of Don Cherry's music is "Don Cherry Music" - so the Artists area covers that very nicely. What are you going to do about the borderline artists that I love so much? Discussion of Henry Grimes will be in the Avant Garde section unless it's about him playing tunes with chord changes or working with Billy Taylor, Gerry Mulligan, or Benny Goodman? Futile. If there's a new release of ANY style, talk about it in the New Release area. If there's a discographical question about ANY style, put it in the Discography area. The Ayler box? Boxed sets (or new releases). I haven't really checked out this Funny Rat thread, but if it's talking about a number of different things, perhaps those should have been made into separate threads. Mike

My point is that the liner notes are WRONG. Not possibly wrong, *verifiably* wrong. So you *can't* use their descriptions to match the titles. It's not interpretation at all. We can *guarantee* that the tune "Jazz" by Joe Sample is track 3 (not track 5, the tune with oboe). How? Because it was recorded at another session by Sample with the Jazz Crusaders. So, the liner note by Gitler that says "Jazz" is an odd title for such an atmospheric piece - is completely false. Listen to the amazon.com snippet of "Jazz" from the Jazz Crusaders record. It ain't atmospheric - it's JAZZ. The paragraph that goes with track 3 is the one that talks about "neo-bop" and "straight-ahead". The tune with flute is A Night In Barcelona, the only piece by Harold Land. All others are by Hutch except Jazz and Ummh by Sample. Goin' Down South is the first track and has the soul feel. It was also recorded on the Crusaders album "Pass The Plate" - have not heard yet. I don't think any of the others have been issued on any other recordings. Ummh is Ummh, no matter which listing, and Gitler's note about it being "aptly titled" fits perfectly. Mike

True multiphonics are kind of related to false fingerings because of the harmonic series. The acoustical properties of a cylinder or cone (woodwind instruments) can allow for two, three, four, or more notes to be sounded simultaneously. You end up tricking the instrument by using an odd fingering that opens or closes a hole to create a secondary/tertiary/etc. wave along with the primary note. There are books detailing the fingerings for various woodwinds - just pages and pages of intervals and chords with the fingerings underneath. Some are much easier to produce than others. Usually the folks who are into multiphonics devote huge amounts of time to really mastering it. Contemporary classical pieces will call for these techniques. This is not the same as the sing/hum-while-playing kind of thing. That's how brass players typically get multiphonic effects, but even with brass it's possible to do it (in a much more limited way, in my experience) without the singing/humming, just through embouchure. Mike

False fingering generally involves playing a "non-standard" fingering to obtain a note. Could be taking advantage of the harmonic series (for example, playing a low note fingering but changing the air and embouchure to make it sound as the next note up in the harmonic series). Mike

The Tete Montoliu discography is now online. As usual, there are additional files - song index, personnel index, issue index. One aspect about which we are particularly proud is the correct spelling of names and titles - even when these sessions have been included in previous disocgraphies, the spelling and accent marks have been butchered. We look forward to further improvements - for example, some interesting information has just come to light regarding rare issued material not included in any previous discography. Any and all info concerning private tapes, broadcasts, etc. is welcome too. Also, details on any reissues or foreign issues not specifically mentioned. Mike

Hi Bruce - Yeah, I hear you. I've been on plenty of gigs where it was: flip through the Real Book and find something, then a string of solos, then the head again, then a pause to flip through again. Way too many musicians have a problem with doing rehearsals. They think they are so important (and maybe so good) that rehearsals are unnecessary. As far as I'm concerned, I'd actually rather rehearse than play the gig! So long as there is stretching and discussion and improvement going on. Too many times it's: get a gig, maybe rehearse once or twice for it. What I think it should be is: rehearse (weekly?) until you are ready to present something that is original and polished, and THEN go out to find a gig. I guess some folks heard that comment by Miles about "I pay you to rehearse on the bandstand" and figured they were in the same league as Herbie, Ron, and Tony. Oops. Mike

I would say that Woody Shaw places much higher on the "innovation" scale because of his exploration and development of the use of fourths and pentatonic scales in jazz improvisation. Mike

Yeah, quick and dirty. All three are by Wayne and are in the illegal version credited to him. Mike

Yes http://home.att.net/~dawild/Coltrane_faqs....idged%20Alabama Mike

OK - after a quick and dirty comparison, here's what I come up with. Asterisks indicate added new tunes, not in the illegal Real Book. Omissions are noted at the start of each letter. LETTER A – missing All In Love Is Fair; All My Tomorrows; Alone Together; And Now, The Queen; And On The Third Day; Around Again; As Time Goes By; Ay, Arriba! African Flower (Petite Fleur Africaine) Afro Blue Afternoon In Paris * Agua De Beber (Water To Drink) Airegin Alfie Alice In Wonderland All Blues * All By Myself All Of Me All Of You All The Things You Are * Alright, Okay, You Win * Always Ana Maria Angel Eyes Anthropology * Apple Honey April In Paris April Joy Arise, Her Eyes Armageddon Au Privave Autumn In New York Autumn Leaves LETTER B – missing Ballet; Batterie; Beneath It All; Bitter Suite In The Ozone; Black Monday; Blessed Relief; Blue Comedy; Boston Marathon; Brainville; Brownout Beautiful Love Beauty And The Beast Bessie's Blues Bewitched Big Nick * Black Coffee Black Diamond Black Narcissus Black Nile Black Orpheus Blue Bossa Blue In Green Blue Monk Blue Room, The Blue Train (Blue Trane) Blues For Alice Bluesette Body And Soul Boplicity (Be Bop Lives) Bright Size Life Broad Way Blues * Broadway But Beautiful Butterfly * Byrd Like LETTER C – missing A Call For All Demons; Canyon Song; Chicken Feathers; Colors Of Chloe; Children’s Song; Conference Of The Birds; Country Roads * Call Me * Call Me Irresponsible * Can't Help Lovin' Dat Man Captain Marvel Central Park West Ceora * C'est Si Bon (It's So Good) Chega De Saudade (No More Blues) Chelsea Bells Chelsea Bridge Cherokee (Indian Love Song) * Cherry Pink And Apple Blossom White Child Is Born, A Chippie * Chitlins Con Carne Come Sunday Como En Vietnam Con Alma Conception Confirmation Contemplation Coral Cotton Tail Could It Be You Countdown Crescent Crystal Silence LETTER D – missing The Days Of Wine And Roses; De Pois De Amor O’Vazio; The Dolphin; The Duke; Duplicities * D Natural Blues Daahoud Dancing On The Ceiling Darn That Dream Day Waves Days And Nights Waiting Dear Old Stockholm Dearly Beloved Dedicated To You Deluge Desafinado Desert Air * Detour Ahead Dexterity * Dizzy Atmosphere Django Doin' The Pig Dolores Dolphin Dance Domino Biscuit Donna Lee Don't Blame Me Don't Get Around Much Anymore * Dream A Little Dream Of Me * Dreamsville LETTER E – missing Eiderdown; Elizete; Empathy E.S.P. * Easter Parade Easy Living Easy To Love (You'd Be So Easy To Love) Ecclusiastics Eighty One El Gaucho Epistrophy Equinox Equipoise LETTER F – missing Fables Of Faubus; A Family Joy; Feelings And Things; The Fields We Know; Flags; A Foggy Day; Fortune Smiles; Four Winds Fall Falling Grace Falling In Love With Love Fee-Fi-Fo-Fum Fine Romance, A 500 Miles High 502 Blues Follow Your Heart Footprints * For All We Know For Heaven's Sake * (I Love You) For Sentimental Reasons Forest Flower Four Four On Six Freddie Freeloader Freedom Jazz Dance * Full House LETTER G – missing Gary’s Waltz; General Mojo’s Well Laid Plan; The Gentle Rain; Goodbye Pork Pie Hat * Gee Baby, Ain't I Good To You Gemini Giant Steps Girl From Ipanema, The (Garota De Ipanema) Gloria's Step God Bless' The Child Golden Lady Good Evening Mr. And Mrs. America Grand Central Green Mountains, The Groovin' High Grow Your Own * Guilty * Gypsy In My Soul LETTER H – missing Hasaan’s Dream; Henninger Flats; Herzog; Hey There; Hold Out Your Hand; Hotel Hello; Hotel Overture; Hotel Vamp Half Nelson Have You Met Miss Jones? Heaven * Heebie Jeebies Hello, Young Lovers Here's That Rainy Day * Hot Toddy House Of Jade How High The Moon How Insensitive (Insensatez) How My Heart Sings Hullo Bolinas LETTER I – missing Ictus; Ida Lupino; I’m Afraid; In Your Own Sweet Way; Inside In; It’s A Raggy Waltz I Can't Get Started With You * I Can't Give You Anything But Love I Could Write A Book I Got It Bad And That Ain't Good I Let A Song Go Out Of My Heart I Love Paris I Love You I Mean You I Remember Clifford I Should Care * I Wish I Knew How It Would Feel To Be Free Icarus If You Never Come To Me (Inutil paisagem) * I'll Never Smile Again I'll Remember April I'm All Smiles * I'm Beginning To See The Light I'm Your Pal Impressions In A Mellow Tone In A Sentimental Mood * In The Mood * In The Wee Small Hours Of The Morning In Your Quiet Place Inch Worm, The Indian Lady Inner Urge Interplay Intrepid Fox, The Invitation Iris * Is You Is, Or Is You Ain't (Ma' Baby) Isn't It Romantic? Isotope Israel It Don't Mean A Thing (If It Ain't Got That Swing) * It's Easy To Remember LETTER J – missing Jamala, Jinrikisha; June The 15th, 1967; Just Friends Jelly Roll Jordu Journey To Recife Joy Spring Juju Jump Monk * June In January * Just One More Chance LETTER K - complete Kelo LETTER L – missing La Fiesta; Leroy The Magician; Lie Awake; Little B’s Poem; Little Niles; Liturgy; Long As You Know You’re Living Yours; Looking Back Lady Bird * Lady Sings The Blues Lament Las Vegas Tango Lazy Bird * Lazy River Like Someone In Love Limehouse Blues * Lines And Spaces Litha Little Boat Little Waltz Long Ago (And Far Away) Lonnie's Lament Look To The Sky * Love Is The Sweetest Thing Lucky Southern Lullaby Of Birdland Lush Life LETTER M – missing Mallet Man; May Dance; Memphis Underground; Mevlevia; Molten Glass; Montage; Moon Germs; The More I See You; Mother Of The Dead Man Magician In You, The Mahjong Maiden Voyage * Man And A Woman, A (Un Homme Et Une Femme) Man In The Green Shirt Meditation (Meditacao) Memories Of Tomorrow Michelle Midnight Mood Midwestern Nights Dream Milano Minority * Miss Ann Missouri Uncompromised Misty Miyako Moment's Notice Mood Indigo Moonchild * Most Beautiful Girl In The World, The Mr. P.C. * My Buddy My Favorite Things My Foolish Heart My Funny Valentine My One And Only Love My Romance * My Shining Hour My Ship * My Way Mysterious Traveller LETTER N – missing Night And Day; Nimbus; Nonsequence Naima (Niema) Nardis Nefertiti Never Will I Marry Nica's Dream Night Dreamer Night Has A Thousand Eyes, The Night In Tunisia, A * Night Train * Nobody Knows You When You're Down And Out Nostalgia In Times Square * Nuages LETTER O – missing Olhos De Gato; On Green Dolphin Street; Open Your Eyes, You Can Fly * (Old Man From) The Old Country Oleo Oliloqui Valley Once I Loved (Amor Em Paz) (Love In Peace) * Once In Love With Amy One Finger Snap One Note Samba (Samba De Uma Nota So) * Only Trust Your Heart Orbits Ornithology Out Of Nowhere LETTER P – missing Peaches En Regalia; Pearlie’s Swine; Pee Wee; Perfect Love; Plain Jane * P.S. I Love You * Paper Doll Passion Dance * Passion Flower Peace Peggy's Blue Skylight Pent Up House * Penthouse Serenade Peri's Scope Pfrancing (No Blues) Pinocchio Pithecanthropus Erectus Portsmouth Figurations Prelude To A Kiss Prince Of Darkness Pussy Cat Dues LETTER Q - complete Quiet Nights Of Quiet Stars (Corcovado) Quiet Now LETTER R – missing The Raven; The Real Guitarist In The House; Resolution Recorda-Me Red Clay Reflections Reincarnation Of A Lovebird * Ring Dem Bells Road Song 'Round Midnight * Ruby, My Dear LETTER S – missing Same Shame; Self Portrait In Three Colors; Semblence; Senor Mouse; Serenade To A Cuckoo; Shades Of Light; The Shadow Of Your Smile; Sing Me Softly Of The Blues; Slowly Gone, Bygone; Some Other Time; Son Of Mr. Green Genes; Song; Space Circus 1; Space Circus 2; Spain; Spiral Dance; Sweeping Up; Sweet Rain Saga Of Harrison Crabfeathers, The Satin Doll Scotch And Soda Scrapple From The Apple Sea Journey Seven Come Eleven Seven Steps To Heaven Sidewinder Silver Hollow Sirabhorn Skating In Central Park So Nice (Summer Samba) So What Solar Solitude Some Day My Prince Will Come * Some Other Spring Some Skunk Funk * Somebody Loves Me Sometime Ago Song For My Father Song Is You, The Sophisticated Lady Sorcerer, The Speak No Evil Sphinx, The * Standing On The Corner Star-Crossed Lovers, The Stella By Starlight Steps Stolen Moments Stompin' At The Savoy Straight No Chaser * String Of Pearls, A Stuff Sugar * Sunday Kind Of Love, A * Surrey With The Fringe On Top, The Swedish Pastry Sweet Georgia Bright Sweet Henry LETTER T – missing They Can’t Take That Away From Me; Tough Talk; Train Samba Trance Take Five Take The 'A' Train Tame Thy Pen Tell Me A Bedtime Story * Thanks For The Memory * That's Amore (That's Love) There Is No Greater Love There Will Never Be Another You * There'll Be Some Changes Made * They Didn't Believe Me Think On Me * Thou Swell Three Flowers Time Remembered Tones For Joan's Bones * Topsy * Tour De Force Triste Tune Up Turn Out The Stars * Twisted Blues LETTER U - complete * Unchain My Heart Uniquity Road Unity Village Up Jumped Spring Upper Manhattan Medical Group (UMMG) LETTER V – missing Vashkar Valse Hot Very Early Virgo LETTER W – missing Walkin’; Walter L.; Waltz For A Lovely Wife; Waltzin’; What Are You Doing The Rest Of Your Life; What Is This Thing Called Love; Where Are You; Wings Of Karma Wait Till You See Her Waltz For Debby Wave We'll Be Together Again Well You Needn't (It's Over Now) West Coast Blues What Am I Here For? What Was When I Fall In Love When Sunny Gets Blue When You Wish Upon A Star * Whispering Wild Flower Windows Witch Hunt * Wives And Lovers (Hey, Little Girl) * Woodchopper's Ball Woodyn' You * World Is Waiting For The Sunrise, The LETTER Y - complete Yes And No Yesterday Yesterdays You Are The Sunshine Of My Life You Are Too Beautiful * You Brought A New Kind Of Love To Me You Don't Know What Love Is You Took Advantage Of Me * Young At Heart * You're Nobody 'til Somebody Loves You Mike

The old Real Book had these: Ana Maria Armageddon Beauty And The Beast Black Nile Delores Deluge El Gaucho E.S.P. Fee-Fi-Fo-Fum Footprints House Of Jade Iris Juju Mahjong Miyako Mr. Jin Nefertiti Night Dreamer Orbits Pinocchio Prince Of Darkness Speak No Evil Virgo Wild Flower Witch Hunt Yes Or No It also credited Wayne with 502 Blues and De Pois De Amor O'Vazio. Of the above 26, it appears that Mr. Jin is the only one not in the Hal Leonard Real Book. The tune "Black Diamond" in the illegal Real Book is incorrectly credited to Roland Kirk. It is by Milton Sealey. Kirk recorded it on Rip, Rig & Panic. No connection to the Wayne piece of the same name. Mike

Added thought - Do they REALLY put the tunes in that order in the book (as shown on Hal Leonard website)? With "A Child Is Born" under A? And "The Girl From Ipanema" under T? If so, that's just fucking stupid. Basic universally-accepted alphabetization rules exist and have done for hundreds of years. It's excusable that some college kids selling stuff out of the trunk of their cars might not get this correct, but a major legitimate publisher has absolutely NO business doing this incorrectly. I don't care whether they're "just imitating the illegal one." They're supposed to be doing the job right - right chords, right royalties, right titles, right alphabetization. Mike