Hot Ptah

Some of the final chapters in Ashley Kahn's book about Impulse Records, "The House That Trane Built", describe the history of the label's decline and later start-up again.

Here is a recent article from the Kansas City Star newspaper, about senior citizens and teens enjoying themselves over big band music. I was struck by the tone of the article, that for a teenager to like jazz is quite an unusual thing. Winter Ball brings generations together through music By LINDA CRUSE Special to The Star Ginger Arn, 93, learned to dance before she walked and goes dancing seven times a week. Lenexa high school sophomore Nick Clow admires ’40s and ’50s jazz artists such as Benny Goodman and Miles Davis and listens to them nearly every day. Big band music brought them together Saturday night at the Shawnee Mission West Winter Ball. Nick and other Shawnee Mission West jazz band musicians played tunes such as “Satin Doll” and “April in Paris” while Arn and her dance partner, Warren Haycock, 82, both of Raytown, kicked up their heels at the second annual event. The meeting of generations took place at the Lenexa Community Center. Dancers of all ages took to the floor while the Overland Express and Jazz Lab bands performed 30 big band era songs, providing three hours of entertainment. Bill Thomas, SM West director of bands, said the goal of the event is to provide a community activity that serves as a fundraiser for the Overland Express. In addition, students learn about the history of jazz. “Jazz was at its pinnacle in the 1940s,” he said. “This event provides us with the opportunity to talk about its roots. It’s surprising how many of the students really enjoy it. It broadens their horizons and gets them listening to something else.” Kevin Hupe, assistant director, said students learn more about the history of jazz by actually playing the music. “We did this in my high school and I thought students might enjoy it,” he said. Students rehearsed for two months and worked with local jazz artist David Basse in preparation for the event. While big band music isn’t the music of choice for typical teens, SM West jazz musicians said they enjoy the annual event. Charles Howard, a SM West senior, participates in a swing dance club and regularly listens to big band music. “I think that most of the people in the jazz band like jazz in general and this is just one form of jazz,” he said. “We also perform concerts with Latin, funk and other types of jazz.” Brian Scarborough, a SM West junior, said the big band sound “is something I’ve always taken an interest in. “It’s fun to get to play the classic music of Tommy Dorsey, Glenn Miller and Duke Ellington. I’ve felt a need to extend my music library.” Jordan Bain, a SM West sophomore, said she enjoys playing big band music because “it’s different. Also, I really enjoy seeing everyone dance.” Frank and Gerri Victor of Overland Park said the students’ performance exceeded some local professional musicians. “There aren’t that many good places to dance,” Gerri Victor said. “The kids are fantastic. They are definitely better than some of the professional bands we have heard.” “It’s so good to find such quality music surfacing in our student musicians,” Frank Victor said. Arn and Haycock also had high praise for the students. “The kids are out of this world,” Haycock said. “Words fail to describe how good they are.” Kenneth Bain, Jordan’s father, said “It’s good to see the kids play before an audience who appreciate it. The seniors love it and say the music is much better than many other places where they go. It’s great to have the community involvement.” Barry Bernstein, another parent, said big band music brings generations together. “It’s so great to have the seniors here dancing,” he said. “It’s the music of their era. The music provides a common ground.”

Not to derail this thread further, BUT.... Rahsaan Roland Kirk could also play in traditional and avant garde jazz styles quite convincingly when he was playing just one horn and playing the song "straight". He was a very substantial musician. His multiple horns, nose flute playing and other exotic aspects to his art were added to a solid musical foundation. For a beginner I might suggest Charles Mingus' "Oh Yeah" and Jaki Byard's "The Jaki Byard Experience." I wonder if there is a bit of a generation gap here. For listeners who were following music when Kirk was still alive, an idea like playing more than one horn at once fit in well with the creative spirit of the times, when musicians were trying out all sorts of new things. Kirk's multi-horn playing was notable, but not the most unusual thing around at the time, by a long shot. Since the mid-1980s or so, jazz has become much more buttoned down, so that someone trying out something wild and different is pooh-poohed in judgmental, hushed tones by a certain segment of the jazz audience.

No one has mentioned Cy Young. Joe Falls once wrote about how he asked a young Tigers pitcher in spring training if he thought that he could win 20 games that year. The Tigers pitcher was confident that he could. Falls then asked him if he could win 20 games for 20 straight years. The pitcher's mouth fell open. Then Falls said, "then you'd only need another 111 wins to match Cy Young." I do not recall reading any account by anyone who saw Cy Young in his prime and then saw some later pitchers too.

I don't know, but that is one hell of an odd lineup. I remember thumbing through a Fillmore book and a number of similarly odd gigs seemed to be programmed there. Apparently they liked to mix-and-match genres in their billing. I wasn't there by any means, but I have read more than once that Bill Graham liked to include older bluesmen and jazz artists on his bills at the Fillmore. Miles Davis played on a bill at the Fillmore with Crosby Stills Nash and Young, I recall.

For pitchers I saw in their prime, Sandy Koufax was the greatest. To me, he was a level above Tom Seaver, Greg Maddux, Steve Carlton, and others. Koufax was almost superhuman in his prime.

Now that several of us have most likely received some of the very inexpensive Storyvilles at Daedalus Music, what do you think of them? I have been struck by two discs in particular as I begin to listen to the twenty or so that I ordered. Teddy Wilson's "Keystone Transcriptions 1939-40" is an outstanding solo piano album, to me. I find it beautiful, swinging, and compelling. It has shot to near the top of my favorite jazz solo piano albums. The "Midnight at V Disc" album is a surprise. There is some unexpectedly memorable soloing by Don Byas and Ben Webster on some of the cuts. I don't think that I have ever been quite as blown away by Byas before. There are also sparkling moments from Jack Teagarden, Louis Armstrong (including one nice vocal), Hot Lips Page, Bobby Hackett, Charlie Shavers, Flip Phillips, Woody Herman.... I didn't know what to expect from this album, but it is getting heavy play in my car. Has anyone else made any favorable, or unfavorable, discoveries?

Satchel Paige.

I ordered several of these albums from Daedalus and was informed that the Benny Goodman, Johnny Griffin, and Red Mitchell/Warne Marsh sets are sold out.

Many of my favorites have been mentioned. Another one of my favorites is Anniversary. Of the later albums, I find it the most compelling for my taste.

I am listening to large amounts of jazz. I find that I grow more impatient with jazz that does not have some feeling to it, some inspiration, some special quality, some "zing", if you will. Twenty years ago, I was excited by about any jazz album, and gave all of them the benefit of the doubt--if the album seemed a bit routine and flat I attributed that to my needing to listen to it some more. Now I just think that the album is routine and flat and move on. If the jazz album has some special quality, I find that I am enjoying almost every jazz style from the earliest recordings on Allen Lowe's excellent anthologies, to the present. In the past year, I have also embarked on a massive listening project to transfer the music collection of my autistic, severely mentally retarded 25 year old son, to an 80 GB iPod. (That iPod is so much more convenient for playing music for him than stacks of CDs). His one joy in life is music, but he gets agitated if he has to hear something that he really does not like. So I have listened to his entire collection and made detailed notes on which songs to include and delete from over 1000 albums. His albums are blues, soul, New Orleans R&B, some rock, reggae, Latin jazz, a little folk/country/bluegrass. He also likes some jazz, and I have been adding that to his iPod. I learned by accident the other day that he absolutely loves Miles' "In A Silent Way" album, for example. My wife plays only classical music in large quantities in our house, mostly Baroque through Beethoven. So I have heard a wide variety of music in the past year. During that listening project for my son's iPod, I realized that I really love jazz. After hearing hours of blues, switching to a great jazz album is still a real kick to me.

bluenote82, I thought that you might be interested in my early experience with Wynton Marsalis. I first saw Wynton in two separate performances with Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers, when he was very young and fully bearded, at the Jazz Gallery in Milwaukee. I talked to Bobby Watson about those performances last year, and he told me that the earlier performance was Wynton's third gig with the Jazz Messengers. I was blown away by this unknown trumpeter, as were all of the people with me. I saw his group with Branford Marsalis, Kenny Kirkland, and Jeff Watts, in the spring of 1982, and in 1984, and enjoyed it very much. I thought that it was a very promising group, and that Wynton was an excellent player. I was a graduate student at the University of Wisconsin in the spring of 1982, and with my poverty level situation, I wrote jazz reviews for the Daily Cardinal, the student newspaper, to get the free concert tickets and records. They were a godsend on my budget. I was certainly interested in writing the reviews, although I was not good at it. (As I cleaned my basement this week, I also ran across my folder of reviews, and it is shocking how poor they were). In that position I spent about 30 minutes alone with Wynton before his quintet gig in late April, 1982, in Madison, to get an interview for the paper. He looked very young in person, and much thinner than he is now. He was very emotional, bursting out with pained statements often. Apart from just undirected emotionalism, of which he had plenty, the gist of his specific upset was that he was very uncertain that he should go back to the 1960s Miles Davis Quintet songs as a source of material and inspiration. He wondered, with anguish, whether it would be much better to just move forward into new music, and not look back into jazz history, whether the entire revival idea was a dumb idea. He mentioned no other jazz musician other than Miles, and no style earlier than the Miles Davis/Shorter/Hancock/Carter/Williams quintet. He also blasted the Art Ensemble of Chicago, stating that in his 20th century classical music classes at Julliard, he had learned all about the kind of music they were trying to incorporate into jazz, and that "20th century classical music is the worst thing that could happen to jazz." I described that part of the conversation in my student paper review. Shortly after that, Professor Joan Wildman, a jazz pianist and professor of music at the University of Wisconsin, wrote a letter to my school paper, stating that she had checked out that quote of Wynton's with his professors at Julliard, whom she knew. She said that she learned that he went to his one and only class in 20th century classical music only a very few times before dropping the class, and that he had no other coursework in 20th century classical music. I have seen Wynton live several times since 1984, both in small group and big band settings, and have heard many of his albums. I have been disappointed by his inconsistency in effort, taste and musical results. The trumpet player I heard with Art Blakey around 1980 did not fulfill his promise, not even remotely. It's a real shame. Occasionally in live performance he bursts out with something that is reminiscent of his earliest live shows I attended, but not often enough. He is wasting his talent, in my humble opinion. When I saw Wynton live a few years ago, I was truly surprised at how he was not even trying to play well, with his band of teenagers (or early 20s, tops). Bobby Watson joined him for the second set and then Wynton had to really play. The level of Wynton's effort increased noticeably when Watson came onstage. They joked around onstage about how Bobby had taught the green, country Wynton how to shave when he first came to the Jazz Messengers. That explains the overgrown, scraggly beard I saw on him at the Jazz Gallery. The young, emotional guy I met with in 1982--it would have been very difficult to imagine him running a sizable business venture someday, even taking a normal amount of growth with age into account

I want to weigh in here for whatever small contribution it might be worth, to describe my conversations with Richard Davis over the years about Sun Ra's early days in Chicago. (The things that Richard Davis has said to me are the only contributions I can make to a jazz board like this one, so I will post them for what they are worth). Richard played duets with Sun Ra at strip clubs in Calumet City in the late 1940s, and spent a lot of time with Sun Ra before Richard moved to New York in the mid-1950s. For example, there is a photo of Sun Ra sitting in Richard's mother's living room in 1950, in the CD booklet that goes with Richard's "Reminesces" album. Richard has spoken at length to me, and to other students and jazz lovers in Madison, Wisconsin (where Richard has lived since 1977), about Sun Ra's strength of character and amazing musical abilities. Sun Ra could play incredible two handed stride piano while reading a thick book of philosophy, while the strippers did their thing a few feet away--Sun Ra would quickly flip to the next page of the book without missing a note. Sun Ra taught them all what to say, and how to say it, at the induction center to get out of the military draft for the Korean War. Sun Ra knew how to play in every musical style you can think of. I have never heard Richard say that Sun Ra influenced his playing or musical conception, or his philosophies of life, or that of other musicians particularly. It was more that Sun Ra was a really good musician, a fun guy to play with, an interesting and strong person, and a good guy to know. I would not say that Richard saw Sun Ra as a peer, but closer to that than a figure to be idolized. Richard did often talk about his high school music teacher, Captain Walter Dyett, who also taught Johnny Griffin and many other famous musicians. Captain Dyett was a huge influence on a generation of Chicago musicians who became well known jazz artists. I think that the idea that Sun Ra was a direct musical or philosophical influence on the other Chicago musicians as a whole, may be overstating things. Richard Davis has a web page and he is known for replying to all sincere email questions. Anyone could ask him. Richard taught with Roscoe Mitchell for several years at the University of Wisconsin, where Richard still teaches. I know that he knows Don Moye and knew Lester Bowie. Richard played in the Sun Ra All-Stars in the early 1980s with Lester Bowie, for example.

The reason for starting this thread was twofold: 1) Some people on the other thread were bothered by criticism there of a recently dead artist, so here we are now; those who don't want to hear this kind of talk have an easy option 2) Trying to sort out the wheat from the chaff among jazz artists, and within the career of a single jazz artist, seems like a fairly natural and arguably necessary thing to do, unless you're one of those "It's all good" people. Don't we all do a lot of that sorting out in the course of our lives as jazz fans? Now doing that in a public forum does add some stress and suggests that mere name-calling might be not a great idea. But are you suggesting that doubts about the value of OP's playing should now never be expressed, or that the subject of what his flaws as a jazz musician might be is of absolutely of no interest? I'm all for critical discernment when it comes to musicians, and, like many here, I have my questions about Peterson's artistic choices in his career. What I trying to say is something that's hard to put into words, but it goes something like this, and it's just my opinion: I feels like people are using the death of Peterson to let loose negative emotions on a person they never knew. Maybe the point people bring up about this forum becoming more negative over the years is valid, it's not feeling right to me what's going on. I really can't express it more than that, but there it is. I wish I could be more articulate of what I'm seeing and experiencing here the past couple of weeks, but the OP thread is part of a trend where if you don't join in thinking the same way as some of the "inner circle" about an artist, you are made to feel like you know jack about music, and are pretty much forced to remain quiet. I'm still trying to figure out what I'm thinking, but this is the best I can do know. Again - in the RIP thread, things were going along in what I thought was a respectful manner (i.e. - nobody - save maybe Clem, but even for him the tone was quite respectful at first - was saying "bad things" about Peterson, other than that they might not have been a fan, and even if we weren't we recognized and respected his unquestionable accomplishments over the course of a notable career. Apparently that wasn't enough. Apparently saying that one wasn't a fan, even if it was done in the context of extending respect, was seen as an affront to humankind, and as a sign of some deep-rooted sociopathy. That I feel, is just so much bullshit, the motivations of which might include (but are not limited to) A) Extreme insecurity on the part of some Peterson fans; B) a subliminal fascistic impulse to stifle/control expression of dissenting opinions, regardless of "tone"; C) A cultural notion of propriety that dictates silence over speech under certain circumstances and/or D) Some folks just not getting out of the house too much. A, B, & D I really don't have any sympathy for, but C is something I'm sensitive to. I felt a need to respond to the RIP thread, because I do recognize and respect Peterson's accomplishments, but I also am not a "fan". Never have been, probably never will be. But that doesn't mean that there's not a lot of respect there. There is, difficult as that appears for some people to see. so anyway, I could have said "What a career!" and let it go at that. Ok, yeah, fine. But where are the rules that one must give a false impression in the name of "respect"? Sorry, but there are some rules by which I just don't play, and that is one of them. So I gave a true impression - not a fan, but load of respect. And that...wasn't good enough. Oh well about that. So somebody suggested that any ambivalence about Peterson be expressed in a seperate thread, And here we are. And it still ain't good enough. Why, because he just died? Once again - respects have been paid. I'd not have started this thread if that last point had been recognized. I have no intention of getting some perverse jollies by dumping on a corpse while it's still warm. But I know good and damn well that there are a lot of jazz folk who are either ambivalent about or downright hostile towards some/most/all of Peterson's output (put me between some & most, leaning towards most), and the idea that their voices should not be heard at all at this time, no matter how respectful they be, is appaling to me. It's kinda like when Regan died. Everybody was supposed to suddenly love this cat just because he was dead all of a sudden. Well sorry 'bout that, but I felt that I could express personal regrets for family and friends w/o having to pretend that I didn't think that he was the vilest occupant of the Oval Office this country has ever had. But nooooo..... People die every day, every hour, probably every minute. When they do, their life story doesn't suddenly change, it just ends. What they've done, they've done. The notion that death suddenly makes a legacy any different than it had been up until that point is kinda....not true. It is not "disrespectful" to comment on the legacy. It is disrespectful to do things like A) applaud the death; B) unfairly (i.e. - out of context) defame the person's character; C) juxtapose/project feelings about the legacy onto one's assessment of the personal character of the deceased D) some more other stuff along these lines. Now, you and others may not feel that way. Fine. But recognize it as that - a difference. It is not a willful attempt to antagonize, belittle, or otherwise "trump" your or anybody else's feelings. If anything, the seemingly easily-made accusations/inferences that they are are quite, dare I say it. hurtful. Insulting even. To think that one's differing opinion of an artist's music, and a gentle expression of same, is intended, either consciously or otherwise, to defame the character of said artist and/or to piss on that artist's fans is so far off the mark as to make me wonder WTF is going on in people's minds that they just can't accept the fact that not everybody likes everybody to the same degree. It really is that simple, y'all. I have re-read the Oscar Peterson RIP thread, and I have to say that it is far more negative than you have described, and became much more negative fairly early on. But you are a moderator, the most frequent poster, and the unofficial leader of the board. So if you want a tough-minded, intimidating board, you can have that, and make it happen. I think it is fair to say that what you find "just right", many other reasonable people might find "too hot" or "too cold." But you have made your position clear that those other people can go to hell. I live in a tough-minded, intimidating atmosphere in the real world every day, and can handle it. I have to decide how much more negativity I want in my life. This board provides some interesting mental stimulation, but I really don't need another dollop of negative intensity in my life. So I will not be visiting Organissimo.org any more.

The reason for starting this thread was twofold: 1) Some people on the other thread were bothered by criticism there of a recently dead artist, so here we are now; those who don't want to hear this kind of talk have an easy option 2) Trying to sort out the wheat from the chaff among jazz artists, and within the career of a single jazz artist, seems like a fairly natural and arguably necessary thing to do, unless you're one of those "It's all good" people. Don't we all do a lot of that sorting out in the course of our lives as jazz fans? Now doing that in a public forum does add some stress and suggests that mere name-calling might be not a great idea. But are you suggesting that doubts about the value of OP's playing should now never be expressed, or that the subject of what his flaws as a jazz musician might be is of absolutely of no interest? I'm all for critical discernment when it comes to musicians, and, like many here, I have my questions about Peterson's artistic choices in his career. What I trying to say is something that's hard to put into words, but it goes something like this, and it's just my opinion: I feels like people are using the death of Peterson to let loose negative emotions on a person they never knew. Maybe the point people bring up about this forum becoming more negative over the years is valid, it's not feeling right to me what's going on. I really can't express it more than that, but there it is. I wish I could be more articulate of what I'm seeing and experiencing here the past couple of weeks, but the OP thread is part of a trend where if you don't join in thinking the same way as some of the "inner circle" about an artist, you are made to feel like you know jack about music, and are pretty much forced to remain quiet. I'm still trying to figure out what I'm thinking, but this is the best I can do know. There is something to this. You have to be strong to stand against the group-think which develops on some of the threads here. When the inner circle orthodoxy mentality is pointed out, with a suggestion that perhaps the discussion would be better framed in terms of "it's just your opinion, and I respect it, so please respect mine too", that idea is hooted down as not being "honest". "Honesty" is championed as the reason for, as you put it, "if you don't join in thinking the same way as some of the "inner circle" about an artist, you are made to feel like you know jack about music, and are pretty much forced to remain quiet". So you have to be strong. Since I have had lots of practice being strong in real life, it doesn't bother me, but I have noticed it.

I like the version of 'You Shook Me" by the Jeff Beck Group, from "Truth", better than Led Zeppelin's version.

So many accordian players start playing it only to get girls. I hope that this is not why Larry took it up.

Wow! There's only six other people in the world, other than me, who listen to Art Tatum with actual pleasure? What is the exact count on that for Cecil Taylor?

Chris encouraged me to share this article because it shows that at one time he was hopeful about Wynton, that his current state of mind about Wynton is not the result of a fixed idea from the beginning of Wynton's career. I wonder what has happened to all of those hundreds of millions of cassettes. The used music stores don't really want them any more. I have a few hundred in my basement. I suppose that many American homes have a similar archive.

My mother bought it for me.

I recently discovered the March, 1989, issue of "Stereo Review" in my basement. I have discussed this via email with Chris Albertson, who encouraged me to share it with the group. In this issue, a piece written by Chris Albertson appears, entitled “The New Jazz”. In it, the following passage appears: “But now we have an exciting alternative—fresh, real jazz, not a diluted substitute. Now we have the neo-boppers, a group of dedicated young jazz musicians with a keen sense of history and a zealous respect for the great forefathers of jazz. These young keepers of the flame include Connick, Wynton and Branford Marsalis, Terence Blanchard, Donald Harrison, Mulgrew Miller, and Lonnie Plaxico. All are spirited players, and many of them gained prominence as members of Art Blakey’s Jazz Messengers. Interestingly enough, a good number of these musicians hail from New Orleans, the original cradle of jazz, and they seem to have a clear mission: to uphold the artistic excellence and soul of this music, to make it pure again.” The rest of the article contrasts the fusion and New Age music of the 1970s and 1980s, which Chris has no kind words for, with what he hopes will be a revitalization of jazz by this group of neo-boppers. This issue also contains the following interesting fact in another article: “In 1987 Americans purchased 390 million blank audio cassettes and 410 million prerecorded cassettes, confirming that the compact cassette remains our favorite music format. As of mid 1988, cassettes were outselling CD’s by a three-to-one margin and LP’s by nearly five to one.”

Well, if it really is "irrational", why is it "rational" to quietly accept it & appear to offer implicit concurrance? One could comment, "wow is this weird! Look at the far too long article in this totally unaware rag that passes for a newspaper in this town!", instead of "I never liked the guy".

I don't disagree with you (Post 117). I respect Oscar Peterson's playing, and have liked some of it. He is somewhere in the middle for me if I had to rank all jazz pianists, favorite to least favorite. My tastes run more to the flavors which are acquired tastes. I like cappacino crunch ice cream more than vanilla. I can't say that vanilla is bad per se, though. I think that he became a public figure somehow, and a civic figure in Canada, and public and civic figures get publicized when they die. It has little to do with the merits of what they achieved in their field. I don't think that the amount of column inches he received when he died has anything to do with what kind of pianist he was. I don't understand the need to bash him to counteract the great praise he has received in the press. The press printing this stuff cares not at all. These canned biographies, including his, were no doubt prepared long ago by beginning staffers, and added to without much thought after the obituary database went online, whenever Oscar received awards, honors, Canadian government accolades, etc. I think that if he had been born in the equally cold Upper Peninsula of Michigan, instead of in Canada, his press clippings would be about the same as those received by Stan Getz when Getz died. The Canadian honors added a lot to what could be easily researched and reported on when he died. I guess my overall thought is, when Jaki Byard died it should have been on the front page of every newspaper in the country. Press coverage has nothing to do with the musical merits of the individual. So why lash out if someone lucks into good coverage, when it is all irrational? I am not referring to obituaries written by someone of the caliber of Larry Kart in this discussion. Many of the articles I have read since Oscar Peterson died strike me as hack work put together by people who knew nothing about him.

In James Lester's "Too Marvelous For Words", his biography of Art Tatum, Tatum's respect and love of Peterson's playing is described several times. Lester wrote that when Art Tatum knew he was dying, he asked for Oscar Peterson. Now, has there been a discussion about that book on this forum? It could be that the book is unreliable. I am not aware of another full length biography of Art Tatum. I don't know of anyone who would state that Oscar Peterson was a greater artist, or pianist, than Art Tatum. Art Tatum is in a class by himself.

My "elite" comment was not well thought out, or delivered well. What I meant by it was that many people have loved the music of jazz popularizers over the years, from Cannonball Adderley to George Shearing to Ramsey Lewis to Oscar Peterson, while those with more jazz experience and critical taste have often been less enamoured with these popularizers. Those with this heightened amount of experience and taste could be called "the more experienced jazz listener", "the more critically aware jazz listener", or to shorten it in a thoughtless moment, "the elite". "The elite" is not a good term, as it contains too many negative connotations.