ep1str0phy

Mingus was also into Harry Beckett's stuff. CT - I'm not sure I would be able to distinguish 'Britjazz' from the improv scene, especially at this stage...Evan Parker? Sure - maybe the MIC recordings (on which tack, also Iskra 1903)...but I don't know...But look at all the SME (great call on Karyobin), early Oxley, etc. records... Some historically fascinating recordings from the UK - The Joseph Holbrooke Trio...Miles' Mode!!! I think the Brotzmann FMPs would have to figure in this discussion too. By that measure, virtually all of the early FMP's play a role here. Important to a discussion that hinges upon music that is more often "talked about" than "heard" is the fact that, barring the every-so-often UMS reissue, the better part of these albums remain unavailable. The present state of CD availability is skewed toward a very narrow understanding of who/what was important. Talk about Mingus--there's an anecdote about when Charles Mingus met Johnny Dyani. Mingus said something to the effect of, "Do you read music?"--Johnny said, "No." Mingus replies--"I read music". The bassists proceed to play, after which Mingus goes--"You sounded sharp." Dyani, in typical, badass fashion, replies, "You sounded flat." I think there was a lot of respect there.

Mercifully, I don't think I've ever seen a Sinatra debate. But all the other stuff--isn't it a general board thing as well? Jazzcorner's debates about Wynton, from what I can tell, are substantially more violent than ours.

Has anyone read the Harriott book? I think history is starting to hip to him (more than a few modern reads are figuring him into the UK equation). As far as American recognition (of any sort)--IIRC, Mingus wanted Harriott for his group (?)--that's going somewhere (never materialized, apparently).

Yeah, reading that one right now. It's as muh a sociological study as it is a musicology book, and I sometimes feel as if the more concrete theoretical observations are just shoehorned into the text. You can deal with free music on manifold political and social levels, but--more often than not--you're left describing the "feel" of the sound in the same set of nebulous adjectives and italicized terminology. It's definitely one of the most comprehensive English language texts we have right now. The micro-history of European Free Improvisation is a piece unto itself--and we'll deal with American influences all we like, but--in the long run--it's the same set of influences that the contemporary US folks have been grappling with (barring, of course, art music reference points--e.g., Schoenberg--that the mainstream of American improvisation only touches in passing). I think the similarities are there, but not through the usual avenues--i.e., it isn't so much a matter of divining influences as much as drawing parallels. There's an involved case, for example, in the relationship between the AACM and the European schools; despite the obvious personal discord (George Lewis's Gittin' to Know Y'all essay is an intelligent, if aggravated, study in free musical culture clash, despite the obvious exceptions to the rule--Lewis and, most spectacularly, Anthony Braxton among them), there's something to be said for the expanded rhetoric and ideologies of the Americans post-Civil Rights/co-cultural nationalism and the practically concurrent, dyed-in-the-wool revolutionism of the Brits, Dutch, Germans (West and East), etc. It's most interesting when you take into account that the AACM, BAG, CBA (and their ilk) didn't really interact with the Europeans that much over the period that Late sets apart. Like Clifford suggests, it comes down to "music"--and it will come down to "politics" to, as there's something going on pretty much everywhere in the late-60's/early-70's (and it's not just an American thang). Among the dozens and dozens of specific groups that bear notice--there's the South African Blue Note axis (w/regard to which we've discussed, at length, elsewhere) and the Japanese free improv guys (Abe, Takayanagi...)--contemporary to the "major" European experiments. On the latter note (and Clifford can add to this, as I know he's coming down the same track)--there's been a "little glut" of reissues lately in the way of historical Japanese free improv albums (expensive, but from what I've heard--particularly Takayanagi's Eclipse, from what seems to be the upteenth improv label/organization called "Iskra"--it's all extremely prescient and sometimes shocking).

Wasn't the Quartet just Greene, Grimes, Price, and Brown? (knew that, right...) Killer appearance by Frank Smith--who is nowhere these days, but was (IMO) going somewhere as an energy player--and by Tom Price, too, whose association with Grimes was sweet but all-too-short lived.

That gig sounds terrific. So Dave Young is still active, then? And Baker was on cello, I assume?

AMG doesn't have listings for half the stuff I purchase nowadays. Sooner or later, hopefully, someone will put together a workable, readily available discography on these guys.

Braxton marketed on youtube? Damn. Digging the music, though. Wallet having phantom pains.

Man, I looove that one. 60's-style Sunny had just the right measure of anarchy, intelligence, and groove. (Coursil, among other quite formidable faces, is always welcome.)

Either would be a good start. I'd almost suggest Brotherhood as the better place, but I'm very, very fond of that first one too. Can't say how the reissues sound, but the original LPs are well-recorded. The early CD issue of the 1st Brotherhood album sounds perfectly fine (I'm satisfied with it, anyway). Unless the remastering has succeeded in making the Miller/Moholo rhythm team even more badass on those first few seconds of "MRA", then I'll stick with what I've got. The more I listen to it, the more I'm beginning to think that Brotherhood is the superior album--more for variety than for value (as discussed in the SA thread). None of that's to say that the self-titled is lacking for ambition ("Night Poem"), aggression, or skill, of course. My opinion could change tomorrow, and together those first two albums are some of the best studio output that that axis of musicians (South African and European alike) ever produced.

I saw this one in the shops--wasn't aware that it dates to that (fine) vintage. I don't think I've yet picked up on the "wonder" of Oxley's solo percussion material, but it's certainly interesting to me (theoretically and historically). This should be a fun one.

Most folks who've really "digested" the Russell book (I've found) tend to equate it to either a mystical tome or a nice, discursive study. I don't think I've yet met an individual who has (directly) derived a cohesive musical vocabulary from the Russell book, but (again) the ideas are interesting enough. I've met far too many "academic" musicians in my time to get dragged down into the [theory > sound] ditch (which is a bitch when you're trying to get people, especially the "younger" cats I'm often around, out of the box--ironically). To Russell's credit on the (later) electric material, I'm not sure I can target a peer in that category, anyhow (some Gil Evans? *gulp* Zappa?). He'll always have points for originality in my book.

I have a copy of For Eva and that first, proto-Embryo "Japo" album. I enjoy both, but For Eva is far more "jazz oriented" (there's a striking resemblance to Walt Dickerson in spots) than the later recordings with the full-fledged Embryo group.

With you again, ubu--Beethoven Hall is another favorite of mine--puts Cherry in a pretty good light, although the context is unconventional for him (modal, yes, but far "boppier" in nature). Some nice playing by the otherwise unknown (to me) horns--Bertil Lovgren, Brian Trentham, Ray Pitts (although they apparently get around European circles, and Trentham was also on--of all things--Relativity Suite). The album is apparently available again--and affordable--on Universal (CD). Ezz-thetics destroys my ass. Nate sent me a copy of 80th Birthday Concert a while ago and it, along with the other Living Time Orchestra sides I have, are mixed affairs for me. Russell certainly knows what to do with electronics, although that doesn't always translate to the most palatable "electric" sound. I know they don't come from the same places, but Russell's Living Time stuff just smacks of knottier "jazz funk" to me. A master, though... I have and am and will spend time with the Lydian Chromatic Concept... book, although many of it's more readily applicable ideas (in the "jazz" context) have already been condensed into summary, much-diluted form. I have yet to take something practically unique out of it, but it reads beautifully to me (in the same manner that Braxton does).

Listening to Down South now, and--being a tremendous Moholo fan, used to hearing him as the drummer in these contexts--Bennink does a terrific job. I think it's just the right measure of Dutch unruliness to transform an already creative mbaqanga groove into something truly off-the-wall. Bennink isn't just a drummer--he's a true percussionist (and it's a testament to the power of the SAs that the "international community" on these Miller recordings sounds so whole, so organic).

Message to folks--Downtown Music Gallery has supposedly "last copies" of the Harry Miller box, sans slipcase, on sale for the fairly high price of $65. Mine arrived in the mail, and it's well worth it (as an indulgence, yes, but I'm loving every minute of it).

Jesus. I saw that Tern listing, too, and I'd be content enough with the CD issue... speaks volumes about the after market power of the Ogun catalog, though.

I was just listening to Brotherhood today--beautiful, beautiful stuff. It's one of those albums that my mind refuses to tire to. (It could act as a cross section of this camp of musicians--a mbaqanga tune, a blowout piece in free time, a knotty post-bop piece, a melee in triple meter, a breakneck march--everything's here, everyone is featured in some capacity.) And I finally got my hands on the Harry Miller box (it's in the mail). I'm excited, to say the least.

Bill Dixon's been discussed on this board before, but I haven't heard too much on Odyssey (most likely as it's so damn expensive). Any Ratty opinions on the box?

Hawk's solo work on We Insist! in particular is some of the most pained, chilling stuff I've heard out of the older generations in the 60's. What a giant...

Hey, thanks for showing up! I have tremendous respect (and envy) for those among us who managed to get in with Kippie somehow. I'd like to hear more of your recollections... (especially as you were there right to the year of the Soweto student strikes--things got worse, no?)

Sad-sounding, but potentially true...

I'd like to year what you could do in another environment, too! Ha! You and Freud gots me... I like his stuff with Bley, and it seems to be the freest he gets nowadays. It's strange, though, how abruptly he seemed to have "cut off" the energy side of things after Ayler. Maybe he got turned off to it somewhere down the line... I recall a Downbeat interview with Carla Bley--a master organizer of progressive improv, right?--going nuts about how awful Peters Brotzmann and Kowald were (having toured with them--modern improvisers in a completely different, decidedly freer bag). So many capable players turned around on the free scene after the music dropped into the post-Aylerian deep-end.

I like Sam Brown on Liberation Music Orchestra (almost wrote Libation...). He's only really a "presence", though, on a few recordings. Re: 4tet discs--not a fan of Jarrett myself, but I enjoy Fort Yawuh for the fine Dewey Redman and some excellent rhythm support (Jarrett isn't quite so "cheesy" on that one--actually a little menacing). That's probably as "free" as the group got, granted that (due in large part to Jarrett's square-as-hell-peg comping/arrangements) even their "open" music sounds rather tightly organized. Silence (a comp?) has some good, freewheeling music on it, but somehow the ECM reverb seems to trail Jarrett wherever he goes... Now, the ECM American 4tet albums have some extremely bright moments, but mainly because they seem to purchase into the KJ mystique/romanticism and try to run from there. The Survivor's Suite has some terrific playing on it by all involved, and even Eyes of the Heart (as fetishized by the Do the Math blog) has its moments--mainly because of some sanguine, passionate playing by Dewey, who somehow made out well with the bloated emotionalism of Jarrett's compositions.

I don't think that I've heard Peacock in enough unique "out" contexts (what--Ayler, the Tony Williams BN dates, some ECM stuff, with a few others...) to really get a hold on what I could do in other environments. I agree that the Ayler groups were somewhere at the limit of American free jazz, though, and the only one who came out of those early ensembles with the beginnings of an entirely new syntax (Ayler excluded, of course) was Don Cherry. After Ayler, it's almost as if the equipoise to musical conservatism is only gradients of freedom... Sunny Murray, for example, has probably done his most interesting post-Ayler (and, for that matter, post-Taylor) work in a largely Aylerian/Taylorian idiom. Those more "inside", post-bop/modal albums are kind of boring to me, honestly.