JSngry

Or Al Wilson...

And Curtis ended up with his own label with a lot of "questionable quality" releases by other folks that were made and released...who know why? Tax breaks? Somebody's girlfriend? Somebody owed favors? Who knows? I doubt that everything that was released on Curtom was a cradle-to-birth labor of love, if you know what I mean, and I'm sure that Curtis made sure his business was being handled in that regard as well. And yet...would Curtis Mayfield been called to produce Michael Jackson? To be the musical coordinator (or whatever it was) for Roots? Etc, etc. etc. No, those are high-level corporate executive positions based on delivering product that delivers a return by any means necessary You think that some studio head gives a shit about who's doing what, a slong as it's getting done and delivering a return? On this planet? Point being - if I look a Quincy Jones as "one of the guys", then yeah, I think he's a creep, albeit still a pretty talented one. But if I look at him as a Driven Corporate-oid, all I can say is that he played the game pretty damn well. And if the object of that game is not to indeed play that game, then what is it, exactly? You gonna blame a snake for being a snake? I'm not.

I'd like to think that real talent is forever, and that it will rise to the level of whatever competition with which it is presented. Which is just to say - you take the old school and pull them straight out of 1927 and drop them right into 2012, hell no, most of them would fold. But you take those guys out of their cradle at birth and move them ahead 80+ years and let them come up facing this level of skill, and, yeah, I think a lot of the guys that excelled then would still excel now, assuming that they didn't get sidetracked playing video games or some such.

And they became well-rewarded employees, not full-bore owners. Nothing wrong with that at all, hell, it's more than I aspire to, I'd love to reach that level, that's for sure. I'm just saying, there are many "opportunities" in this business, and like any other business, when you decide to cross the line into full-time management, if you want to "reach the top" and become "ownership", then...that's a whole 'nother game with a whole 'nother set of rules. You know why there's so few people at the top in any business? Because most folks don't want to do what it takes to get there. Thank god.

<br /><br />Maybe what some seem to have reservations about here is why grabbing a survival opportunity so often has to go at the price of shortchanging your fellow MUSICIANS. Credit to whom credit is due seems to be a line of thinking here and I cannot say I do NOT find that understandable ...<br /><br /><br />I'm a big believer in credit where credit is due myself, but that is not what the Corporate Music Industry is built on. It's the same as any other corporate industry - the many do the work, the few organize the work, and the fewer still get the glory and the big bucks. Same as it ever was.<br /><br />The Dirty Little Secret in jazz is that most people don't really want to be <b>hugely </b>successful. They see what it takes and say, &quot;uhhhhh....no thanks&quot;, and then set about to get as far along as they can be doing what they feel is right (enough). Which is all good (best, actually, imo), but...don't bitch about not ever making it &quot;really big&quot;, and don't be shocked and surprised when the people who do want to be really big go ahead and do the things that lead to just that.<br /><br />And this - if you see somebody who really is a Nice Guy who has also made it really big, you can almost bet your life that somewhere, at some point, they had somebody acting on their behalf to do what it took.<br /><br />Otherwise, you either have an &quot;industry&quot; and all that comes with it or you don't. C'est la vie.<br /><br /><br /><br /> I don't necessarily take this as BS. I don't know that much about the music world, but take all of the music references out of this thought and you have pretty well explained every other work situation I have ever been in. Bravo. You said a mouthful, brother. Musicians are no different---we just think we are. Word. The whole Nicholas Payton #BAM thing is dead in the water because he's only looking at who's gonna "own" the music, not who's gonna own the business. Yeah, MF, own your music all you want to, own your masters, and all this and all that, call it whatever you want to. At some point, if you want to be more than a cottage industry (of whatever size), you gonna have to do business with somebody who is not you, not like you, and not really all that concerned about you. Shake hands and come out swinging! To expect a musician to get into the business, I mean all the way in, I mean to get into it to win, and not expect them to screw other musicians along the way, hell, that's crazy talk! Who else is there to screw, at least if you want to live?

Uh, yeah, to be known as a "manager who can deliver product". A very corporate thing to be, and what you do if you want to climb that ladder. The more of a "high level" view you can take and still deliver, the bigger role you get "rewarded" with. That's how an industry works! Pathology? Unless you call good, old-fashioned "me first" American corporate ambition/careerism a pathology (and if you did, I don't know if you'd be wholly wrong...), then...are you serious? First of all, two words - Greg Phillinganes. Second of all - if Quincy Jones had been a Well-Behaved Ethical Musical Citizen like so many other of his peers, how the fuck do you think he would ever have been in the position to produce Michael Jackson in the first place? Would not have happened. He'd have been another Lalo Schiffrin or Oliver Nelson of Pat Williams or on and on and on, some guy who was well-respected and well employed, but never somebody who was in the boardroom making decisions about how the next album by The Hottest Thing Ever was going to sound. He'd be a guy getting the calls, not the guy making them. Quincy figured early on that he wanted to be one of those guys in that room at that time, and he became one. I don't call that pathology, I call it The Real American Way Of Doing Business. It's not what I want, it's not what most of us here want, but it's something that Quincy Jones wanted, and he figured out how to get it. The American Dream baby, the American Fucking Dream.

Maybe what some seem to have reservations about here is why grabbing a survival opportunity so often has to go at the price of shortchanging your fellow MUSICIANS. Credit to whom credit is due seems to be a line of thinking here and I cannot say I do NOT find that understandable ... I'm a big believer in credit where credit is due myself, but that is not what the Corporate Music Industry is built on. It's the same as any other corporate industry - the many do the work, the few organize the work, and the fewer still get the glory and the big bucks. Same as it ever was. The Dirty Little Secret in jazz is that most people don't really want to be hugely successful. They see what it takes and say, "uhhhhh....no thanks", and then set about to get as far along as they can be doing what they feel is right (enough). Which is all good (best, actually, imo), but...don't bitch about not ever making it "really big", and don't be shocked and surprised when the people who do want to be really big go ahead and do the things that lead to just that. And this - if you see somebody who really is a Nice Guy who has also made it really big, you can almost bet your life that somewhere, at some point, they had somebody acting on their behalf to do what it took. Otherwise, you either have an "industry" and all that comes with it or you don't. C'est la vie.

Not to change the subject of the thread, but I have bolded and italicized the key word in this sentence. This version of the story was peddled by a particular musician with an axe to grind. There is plenty of evidence to the contrary. Fair enough. I've heard it both ways, and I'd not be surprised either way, or to any degree.

Ok, give me a list of the five worst Ethical Sins Of Quincy Jones, and show me how any of them are inconsistent with any other Highly Ambitious Corporate Ladder Climber With Flexible Ethics. And for Bonus Points, tell me how many of them were actually illegal (breach of contract, etc). And for Final Righteous Justification, tell be why the actions of Quincy Jones, Highly Ambitious Successful Corporate Ladder Climber With Flexible Ethics, are any worse than those of any other Highly Ambitious Successful Corporate Ladder Climber With Flexible Ethics, apart from that Quoincy Jones was once a Talented (Enough) Jazz Musician, and Talented (Enough) Jazz Musicians should not ever become Highly Ambitious Successful Corporate Ladder Climbers With Flexible Ethics because it is not there place to do so. And then tell me whose place it is to be Highly Ambitious Corporate Successful Ladder Climber With Flexible Ethics. It must be somebody's, because there sure are a hell of a lot of them, and nobody seems to be all THAT upset about it, even the Talented (Enough) Jazz Musicians whose business ends up being run by them (if they are to have any business of any scope, that is).

The 3-disc Motion is more than just essential for any serious Konitz buff.

First of all, the original question was "why is his name on this album", and I gave what I thought was a realistic answer - because he had the juice to get the date done. So in that regard (only), yes, comparisons to Kenton, Basie, & Herman are wholly appropriate. As far as his MO being somehow unique and/or scandalous, I hardly think so, although the degree of success he leveraged it to is somewhat rare. But if you think that one arranger "taking credit" for another's work is somehow unique, please guess again. Stories abound, and not all of them are a simple matter of "ghost-writing" to meet a deadline or to farm out a too heavy workload. Two examples = Budd Johnson claims he never saw Gil Fuller write a note in his life (and he wasn't saying that to indicate that Fuller worked expeditiously or anything like that), and Nelson Riddle reportedly covered Les Baxter's ass with neither verbal or financial acknowledgement, Baxter reportedly having much better personal skills than musical ones (and Riddle being the exact opposite). That neither Fuller nor Baxter had the ambition/audacty/gumption/whatever of Quincy Jones (although Baxter was a pretty big guy at Captiol in his time...) means only that Jones was more ambitious than these guys, not that he did anything more egregious than them. Arranging used to be a highly competitive field, back in the day when real people played real parts written on real paper. Competition was fierce, ambition not unusual, and "manipulation" far from rare. Did everybody do it? Ho, not even. But is every "big name" in the business able to honestly take credit for every piece of work that bears their name? Hmmmmm.... That everybody "feels sorry" for Quincy Jones' "victims" is understandable enough, but to think that he was the only guy who's ever done anything like this is just absurd, especially considering that he did it in a corporate environment, where ambition is rewarded, and means not question unless and until too much noise gets made. Do I "approve" of it? Hell no. Am I offended by it? Not any more than I am by any other corporate stooge's ambition-driven grabs and runs, which is to say that such a world is not my world, so whatever is done in that world usually serves to gladden me that I am not in it. What I want to know is this - who ghost-wrote the Walking In Space & Guala Matara albums? I see Bob James creditied with one tune on the former, but that's it.

American Pickers American Family The Family Of Mann

Traps the Boy Wonder Robin Robyn

That's the plan.

Collin Street Bakery predates Rick Perry by MANY a year (I ate them when I was a wee lad, and I think they were already "old" then, the bakery, not the fruitcakes...), and will, god willing, outlast him just as well! But yeah, that's good stuff. If not for my current weight/blood sugar concerns, I'd eat them year-round, that's how good they are.

Bob "The Cooz" Cousy Cooz Fashion: http://www.coozfashion.com/ The Good People of the Cooz Bar in Dubai, whre, apparently, teh mellow sounds of jazz are heard: http://www.restaurants.dubai.hyatt.com/cooz/

Brooks Robinson injured in fall: http://mlb.sbnation.com/2012/1/29/2756251/brooks-robinson-injured-fall-hall-of-fame C'mon Brooks, take care of yourself now, please!

Sirhan Sirhan Sir (to whom, with love) M'aam (to whom, wham bam, and thank you)

Sounds like something I will want to read. Thanks for the heads-up.

PM sent on the Miles/Chronicles box.

Quincy got his name on the album for the same reason Stan Kenton, Count Basie, Woody Herman & a bunch of other people got their names on album covers for doing little more than getting/keeping the players together and rehearsing/conducting/etc other people's charts. They didn't create any of the music, but they did provision it, and the record date got made under their province and would not have taken the form that it did otherwise. For better or worse, that's the way corporate business gets done, and for better or worse, music at this level of the business is very much corporate. "Quincy Jones" rapidly became a "corporate" idea rahter than an individual one, and that idea has grown and become institutionalized. And if not Quincy to do it, then who? From a strictly business standpoint, it seems to me that the man decided that he was going to run his business instead of having his business run him. Decades of questionable (at best) ethics in terms of full and proper credit apart, That drive to own rather than be owned is not in and of itself to be disparaged. Especially in the record business of (most of) Jones' time. Quincy could have easily spent his life as Duke Pearson, or Billy Byers, or any other number of arrangers/contractors who had to wait to get calls before they they could make calls. Quincy said fuck it, I'm going to be the guy who makes the calls to the guys who make the calls. Somebody gotta be that guy, might as well be me. It ain't pretty, it ain't, but, yeah, somebody do gotta be that guy. Shit don't get done without that guy, not anything of scale, anyway. At least the arrangers got credit this time.

Let me out it this way - I actually agree with a fair part of the stuff about the narcissism and bourgeois tendencies of a lot of this stuff, how it's as much about certainty of product as it is anything, but...that's not music, that's, for want of a better word, "sociology".

But that's not discussing music. That's discussing the merits of a syllabus or some such.

Does it really matter? If it's a fool's battle, then leave it to the fools.