JSngry

Got this one for Fathers Day, and it's a very good'un indeed. I mean no slight when I say that Mariano's melody statements overshadow his improvisations. His soloing is very, VERY good, an ongoing quirky leap up into the altissimo register notwithstanding. But BOY does he bring a lot to (and out of) those melodies! Recommended, and with not a little enthusiasm. Repeatly being played here.

One word: IAPETUS!!!! IAPETUS!!!! IAPETUS!!!! IAPETUS!!!! IAPETUS!!!! IAPETUS!!!! IAPETUS!!!! IAPETUS!!!! IAPETUS!!!! IAPETUS!!!! IAPETUS!!!! IAPETUS!!!! IAPETUS!!!! IAPETUS!!!! On Mainstream, early 70s, not quite like anything else, DESPERATELY needs reissuing. Cheap & inadequate description = the followup to Filles that Miles never made. Made w/ Bobby Hutcherson's early 70s band w/o Bobby, pretty "trippy" but DAMN does it hold up well today to these ears. Hadley's been on the scene since the late 40s, had a long bout w/drug addiction (which he speaks of openly). Those Catalyst sides are good, espescially the one w/Elvin. Hadley had another Mainstream album before IAPETUS that I've not heard, but its reputation ain't so great. IAPETUS, however, is one-of-a-kind in my book, one of those "lost treasures" that time is trying REALLY hard to forget. It ain't "straight ahead jazz", though. Not everybody would share my enthusiasm I'm sure, if for no other reason than I've hyped the damn thing so much that it'll probably seem anti-climatic. But I can't help myself. I really do think it's THAT good. Caliman can also be heard on Santana's CARAVANSERI, playing the saxophonic skronk that opens the album. Chuck Nessa has spoken to Hadley fairly recently for the Uptown Mingus set booklet. Maybe he has current info.

This has beguiled me for a long time. I know Duke's piece was about Congo Square, but that doesn't explain the meaning of the actual word. And what about Bird's reworking of "Cherokee"? Anybody know how it came to be named that? The word seems to pop up occasionally, either straight or varied, in old blues songs, so it must have been in the vernacular. Is it a respelling of "cocoa" or is it a derivation of something African (grasping at straws here...)? Of course, there's Kokomo, Indiana, but I always assumed (incorrectly?) that that was a Native American thing. Anybody have any insight? Thanks in advance.

Chris is visiting outta town for a while, that's all I know.

We are indeed living in interesting times!

I play an old Selmer C* (short neck) that had the bore hollowed out before I got it. Played a metal Berg 120/0 for years before I got tired of being so damn BRIGHT all the time. This C*, believe it or not, can actually play louder than the Berg, but it's got a nice fat dark sound that can be colored to fit the context. Plus, it sounds GREAT when miked, which is most of the time these days, it seems. Not my preference necessarily, but whatcha gonna do bout that? Reeds vary between Vandoren Java 3 1/2, regular Vandoren 3, and LaVoz Medium Hard, whatever seems to be in season at the time. The thing to remember about mouthpieces is that they're facilitators of the tone, not creators of it. Over time, you're going to get your basic sound no matter WHAT you play on, so keep that in mind. A mouthpiece that sounds radically different when you first play it is going to sound a lot more like what you sound now in a few weeks (or less). If you want a totally different sound, you gotta look at embochure, breathing, all that INTERNAL stuff. So when auditioning mouthpieces, think in terms of ease of playing, evenness, degrees of tonal nuance, that sort of thing, NOT getting a totally different sound. I know you're switching from alto, but keep it in mind anyway. Really, if you want a dark sound, don't rule out rubber, especially the older Bergs. Seems like metal is the de facto choice today, but it shouldn't always be so if you ask me. Experiment, and if you got the time and the $$$, look at older pieces, either in pawn shops (less $$$) or online (SIGNIFICANTLY more $$$). I lucked into mine - it came with a horn my folks bought me for High School graduation!

Tiptoe through the trollops, I always say...

I think a Blakey "loose ends" set would be inevitable eventually. His Colpix, Limelight, and Roulette recordings all under one roof. None of it is his very best work by any means, but it needs to be done, I think.

I believe that Metrojazz was the MGM jazz subsidiary before they bought Verve from Norman Granz. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong, but not a lot of their stuff got transfered to Verve that I'm aware of (Sonny's BRASS/TRIO is a notable exception), and not all that much of it has made it to CD. This sounds like a really good one. Certainly a top-shelf lineup. What are the tunes?

Snoop's got a winner here!

I voted reform, because at it's best, boxing is a fascinating sport to watch for the strategies and the improvisational tactics used by the boxers. It's no mystery why so many jazz musicians have been big boxing buffs. But - the sport has become so corrupt and such a circus run amock that whatever there is to be enjoyed and valued in the sport is on the verge of being lost, if it hasn't been already. Reform of both in-the-ring matters and business/regulatory matters are greatly needed.

Good to see you here, Shrdlu! P.S. I avoid the word "fundamentalist", as it has been used by the media in conection with various religious and political crackpots over the years. Duly noted.

6th

Should I change my avitar to this?

It's always unfortunate when a serious discussion turns personal, and such seems to have happened here. Let's everybody chill out, ok? I would like to say, and in no uncertain terms, that to suggest that anybody has the potential to be an abusive parent is an EXTREMELY provocative act whether the accuser intends it or not. As a parent myself, I would be extremely upset if somebody made such accusations towards me, and I think that the levelling of such charges against Mnytime are a step over the line of what I consider acceptable "tweaking". Giving and recieving personal insults are part and parcel of the on-line game, but child abuse is not a personal matter - it involves third parties, children at that, and that gives it a whole 'nother dimension of sensitivities. Mnytime is indeed a competitor, and by his own admission a fierce one, but to draw the conclusion that he might be an abusive parent just because of that is in no way justified. Abuse is not caused by competitiveness, not in any way that I've seen documented. There are other causes, and Mnytime hasn't shown any signs of those at all. So let's keep any and all insults and/or other expressions of disagreement above the belt, ok? This has been a really interesting thread to both read and participate in. Let's keep it that way.

Yeah, I wonder why Klitschko didn't go for the KO ASAP. Lewis was cleatly out of gas early and often, and with a cut like that, I'd think he had to know that a TKO against him was a distinct possibility. But maybe not. Or maybe he ws giving it all he had and it wasn't enough to get the KO. No mattter, he didn't close it out soon enough and lost the fight on what I thought was a totally justifiable TKO. Carpe diem, baby.

I heard it waaaaayyy back in the 70s when I was first discovering Afro-Cuban music and wasn't impressed at all. It seemed quite "American". I was hungry for the real Cuban/Perto Rican thing, and was having no problem finding it. But that was a loooong time ago, and I've broadened my appreciation a lot since then. I'd be interested in hearing it again with fresh ears.

Well to be honest, man, some of your statements seemed kinda strong at first glace to me too. But I tried to reconcile what I saw with what I knew, and I just figure that your a really, REALLY driven guy personally who can still deal with others who aren't as "successful" as long as they're not halfassing their way through life 24/7. I'm a lot like that myself. But I DO think that the same broader appreciation we can and do (should?) apply to music can and should be used in all areas of life, including athletic performance, if only after the fact. But that's just me.

You bought it WHERE????????? :D :D

If that is in fact hardbop's work at Amazon, the specific respect I had for him has been greatly reduced, if not withdrawn completely.

Wow... This thread has really gone off on some tangents, eh? It's gone off-track with greater regularity than NYC bettors... Let me say it again - the real intent of the hypothetical question that started http://www.organissimo.org/forum/index.php...t=ST&f=8&t=1826 was not to compare music to sports or anything like that, although the detour into things quantum was really cool. The purpose was bring u[ the matter of appreciating unique accomplishments that fell outside the parameters of readily recognized "greatness". It's my opinion that out-of-hand dismissal of such accomplishments, relegating them to the category of out and out failure is inaccurate and myopic, and perhaps is indicative of a worldview that I would consider "imbalanced". But in my attempt to introduce an idea into discussion in such a backhanded fashion, if that idea never really gets established as the central topic, that's the fault of the presentation, so hey - my bad. I guess that using a sports analogy threw a lot of people off, maybe because music, the kind of music most of us like anyway, and sports have assumed significantly different roles in society in terms of things like image, attention, media priority, etc. But those are all "after the fact" realities that society has superimposed on the core activities themselves, 3rd party attempts to define and prioritize first-person activities, and I've got a hunch that quite a few athletes are as skeptical about the general public REALLY understanding what their whole trip is about as a lot of musicians do. But that's just a hunch. In truth, I don't see all that much difference in purely human terms between athletic and musical endeavors, at least not as it pertains to things like training, maintaining focus while performing, staying on task in the face of external distraction, etc. I think that's why sports of some sort has always played a role in pretty much all societies. Music, on the other hand, is in many cultures a "folk" tradition, not something to be approached with the intent of extending personal and cultural boundaries. There's a latent (or not so latent...) built-in cultural conflict between music and sports in this regard - sport has ALWAYS been used as a tool of personal betterment, whereas music has very often been used as a collective tool of general cultural cohesion, through either recreational or ritualistic application. But I choose to look beyond all that baggage and break it down to the individual because in the end, without the individual, nothing gets done (and in a delicious act of cosmic ironical balancing, the way that the individual most often gets thing done is by losing the ego and surrendering to a greater whole. Gotta love Creation, eh? Balance will not be denied!), and for an individual to develop his/her abilities to the max in ANY endeavor requires personal discipline and a constant series of tests to identify what's been adequately developed, what's working better than average, and what really sucks and needs to be fixed ASAP. The intents/results of competition are valid across the board, I think. They're in no way exclusive to sports nor are they in no way excluded from music, at least not any kind of music/musician that desires to serve anything more than a role of strict and total functionality. I know I'm far from alone in lamenting/grousing about the de-evolution of so much sport into a sensationalized method of cynical emotional manipulation to pick the pockets of those fans who seemingly lack the tools to acquire a sense of personal identity by any but vicarious means. Nor am I alone in lamenting/grousing about the shrinking number of jazz (or other, for that matter) musicians whose voices who less than distinct and personal. To me, that's a sign that these musicians have been either unaware of or unwilling to confront the very real challenges, personal and professional, of finding and developing one's "true self" and have instead "settled" for the alternative of somewhat faceless extreme competency, an alternative that is not without challenges, but challenges that are almost always met and conquered through repetitive exercises to develop muscle memory, not by digging into yourself to see what's really there. The resultant craftsmanship is certainly to be admired and respected, but if that's all there is... Most musicians I know, and know of through anecdotal evidence, do indeed possess quite a competitive streak. You have to. But that competitiveness is seldom utilized for purely destructive purposes. Of course, it's a given that the ultimate competition is with one's self, but it's also a given that most musicians play in groups, and that means challenging the people you play with, either professionally or socially, when the need arises. However, the goal of such challenges is not to defeat but to elevate both yourself and the people you love. It's not always a harmonious process, egos can get bruised and tempers can flare, but in the end the realization that "we're all in this for the same thing" prevails, and lessons are both taught and learned by all concerned, the net result being that both individuals and the collective musical culture is elevated in many different ways. That's what "cutting sessions" are ultimately all about (when they arise, anyway - the social milieu that produced such a musical culture has not exactly disappeared, but it has evolved so radically that these impulses are more often than not found in equally radically different expressions these days, and much more subtly than before. But they can still be found, especially if you go looking for them and aren't willing to take "no" for an answer the first time around. ) OTOH, the vast majority of jazz musicians I know have a real aversion to the "gunslinger as lifestyle" mentality. The few guys who are always looking to seek and destroy are not looked upon favorably personally or professionally. Quite often these are younger people who for whatever reason have not yet matured into an awareness and appreciation of the "deeper" realities of music. Also, many of those who practice music-as-destruction also have the same attitude about conducting their business and display a distinct lack of ethics, which only adds to their general disfavor within the community. Still, these people DO exist, always have and always will. One must have the tools at one's disposal to handle them unless one wants to always be handled BY them, and them's tools you don't learn in school, Sunday or otherwise, if you get my drift. "Don't mistake my kindness for weakness" is where it's at. Besides, playing music in a group (and even if when playing solo, if even one person is going to hear it, either at that moment or later, you have a group, like it or not) is very much an interpersonal relationship, a network of them actually, and as in all relationships, all take and no give wears out it's welcome AND it's usefulness sooner or later. Now as to Mnytime's espousal of the Lombardi philosophy, I must say that I am in agreement when it comes to personal preparation and actual performance. The refusal to accept a halfass effort in advance is imperative to excellence, I think, and without thorough mental and physical preparation, it's going to prove near impossible to reach that "zone" that musicians and athletes both reach where everything seems to click as a matter of instinct. But that preparation takes drive, it doesn't do it by itself. Where I back off this philosophy is after the fact, when one takes stock of what it is one has accomplished. It is important, crucial even, to not "settle" when practicing and/or performing, but a realistic evaluation after the fact requires acknowledging and taking some satisfaction in progress, even if the goal was not fully met. Too often, people seem to think that you either have to never be happy/satisfied or else that you should always look at the bright side and celebrate EVERY minor step forward. I think both extremes are bullshit - it's just as wack to never take any satisfaction when incremental progress is made as it is to make a big whoopiefest out of every little step forward. For example, our son has spent his adolescence dealing with some congenitally messed-up knee structures that he inherited from me. He's had 3 knee surgeries to rebuild restructure his knee muscles/tendons between ages 11 & 15. So, participation in recreational sports has been all but impossible for him, and he's missed that. Not varsity sports or anything like that, just the hanging-out and playing ball type of fun that most kids his age like to do in some form or fashion. Well, the last operation finally totally healed up, and this past winter he was invited to play basketball on a team. Having not participated in team sports since Little League (where a freak succession of about 6 beanings in the space of about 2 weeks pretty much ruined a very, VERY good talent - you can say "shake it off" & "get back up there" to an 8 year old until you're blue in the face, but unless you're willing to push him to the point of tears or beyond, you gotta respect the fact that at THAT age, that's a helluva lot of physical and emotional shock in a short period of time and accept that baseball might suddenly become MUCH less interesting for them...), we agreed to let him play. Well, the team was a joke, really, but it was good to see Charlie out there playing with enthusiasm and really, REALLY trying, even if he didn't have the skills, intuitive or developed, of the other kids. I considered it a personal triumph for him. But the team kept losing because, well, they sucked as basketball players, my son included. After their 3rd consecutive loss, Charlie was really, REALLY bummed, angry even. I told him that he should never be happy about a team loss, especially of the lopsided variety they had been repeatedly handed, but that when I saw him out there trying his hardest, running the court and playing aggressive defense, that I was filled with nothing but pride in him because I KNEW that HE was performing to his absolute BEST ability. As long as we both could honestly say that, I told him, the team defeats, as irritating and occasionally humiliating as they were, need not make him feel like a "loser". Well, the season finale came around, the team had won but 1 game, and like too many others, this one turned into a blowout. In the space of the 3rd quarter, the team went from futile effort to apathy to mocking buffoonery, and the younger Mr. Sangrey, having inherited not only bad knees but a propensity for absurdist humor from his old man, was an active participant. TOO active in fact. After the game, I reamed the boy out good. He didn't like it one bit, but he needed to hear it. As long as he was taking pride in his effort and was actually GIVING his best effort, I was cool and supported him no matter how dark the defeats were (and some were VERY dark), even if I was quietly seething inside at the lack of any coaching direction and such - this was HIS thing, not mine. But the second he took on the attitude of a REAL loser, somebody who doesn't even have the personal pride to TRY, somebody who would rather personally give up in collective disgrace than go to collective defeat with personal dignity, he WAS going to hear about it from me, and hear it long and hard. Which he did. Because I love him. If my experience with MY Dad is any indicator, the fact that he didn't want to hear it means nothing more than that it came in the backdoor of his mind, found a cozy little spot to take a nap for a cuppla years, and will wake up when it's time, ready to fully spring into action, much to the surprise of the host. God, I hope so... Now, does the Lombardian ethos accommodate scenarios like this? I mean, you know they're everywhere all the time - efforts being made that fall short in some form or fashion, personal bests that still aren't "good enough" in the larger arena. Are the people who do this REALLY "losers"? Are their lives really total failures? There are those hardcore individuals who will say yes, that you're either a winner or a loser, no in-between, and no qualifying circumstances or relativistic evaluations allowed. But I say bullshit - if a person is really, REALLY challenging themselves, then even if they "fail" at one level, then they have indeed triumphed at another. They might not be a champion of anything other than themselves, but by God, that's a helluva lot more than a LOT of people can say, and I think it's an accomplishment worthy of respect across the board. This holds true for any endeavor, including music AND athletics. Hey, don't believe the hype. Human activity is human activity, period. Removed from the distortions of and endowments by a society that's turned into one giant collective spectator that has seemingly bottomless pockets to pay for the "privilege" of constantly watching other people accomplish things and have successes, Trane & Michael Jordan probably have a lot, LOT more in common than not. I really do believe that. And don't automatically assume that what one demands of oneself under certain circumstances is what one demands of others in all circumstances, at least not in degree. T'aint necessarily so... As a closing sidenote, just let me say that I hope we can all see the irony in having an at times heated debate about the pros and cons of the varying degrees and conceptions of competitiveness. The passion and frequency with which we all state our positions here and elsewhere is incontrivable evidence of the intrinsic nature of the need to "leave a mark" that nearly all of us seem to possess.

Myself included! :D

Anybody catch hardbop's praise of Wynton for derailing a planned J@LC concert by George Russell because Russell planned on using electric bass? I mean, I've defended hardbop in the past on the grounds that even though a lot of us view his tastes as narrow, he likes what he likes with a passion, and I respect that immensely, even though I personally think that a little less passion and a little more openmindedness might be good for the man, if you know what I mean. Besides, our disagreements have always been civil, if irreconcilable, and I can defintely live with that. But THIS was just ridiculous. I tweaked him a very little bit on it, and was seemingly ignored. But if I had the time these days to maintain full-time multi-board citizenship, I believe I might have shown him my dark side in a way he would have found impossible to ignore. As much as I enjoy the various "eccentrics" of cyberspace, especially the ones I have just enough in common with to agree with on a few things every once in a while, this matter nearly had me ready to lock and load. Chris, otoh, stepped in and did what had to be done, and with a lot less of the "personal" stuff that goes on between him and hardbop (stuff that has "BAIT" written all over it, and stuff that hardbop goes ahead and bites into anyway. It's become an endearing part of the ongoing saga imo). Kudos, Chris!

I wonder what became of SHRDLU, the Hard Bop loving, tenor sax playing, apolitical Fundamentalist Baptist preacher who almost never allowed himself to be baited about his faith and beliefs in spite of some REALLY strong mockery and scorn. A very unique individual, the kind one may never meet in real-life but seems to pop up in cyberspace not infrequently. He never really came back after his wife passed. That seemed to really hit him where it hurt, as it would any of us. Hope he's doing well.

Oh, well then. This is nothing like the Debut stuff, which is heavy on Tristano and "classical" concepts. Mingus had long moved into a more, for lack of a better term, "earthy" concept by the time TOWN HALL was recorded. Even though there's ;ots of written parts, the feel is much "rawer" than the material from the Debut years. If you've heard EPITAPH, this is more in line with that. Actually, a great deal of EPITAPH comes from the music that was performed at Town Hall. EPITAPH is a lot cleaner in execution, TOO clean, if you ask me. TOWN HALL gets the feel right and has significantly better soloists, to put it mildly.