robertoart

Based on the brief "tease", plus the "Blue Mist" performance from around that same time, I would actually look forward to seeing it more for Burrell and Kessel than for Green. Hopefully we will all get to see it one day, and we can all have an informed opinion. My opinion of Kessel, in this kind of company, is you would probably get to hear how his playing is more connected to the swing and hillbilly times, Dandy fashion sense notwithstanding. I suspect when his chord melody schtick is taken out of the equation, he would reveal himself to suffer from the kinds of limitations that are pejoratively thrown Greens way - ad infinitum. Certainly Burrell shines in the London performance, his lines and tones are very edgy for the context. But Burrell could get very third streamy and aspirational in his own greasy way...if you think that might float your boat.

Could this have been taped in colour perhaps? The well known Uk clip from this tour is in colour? Can't believe this is languishing 'hidden' in the hand of 'collectors'. I'm not familiar with the 1969 Paris Grant Green recordings. Do you have more info? Is that a French studio date or a live recording? If a live recording, was it a professional recording for French radio - or amateur recording? I believe it is a part of this performance seen here, the tunes are apparently from the Grant Green trio portion of this concert with double bass and drums. Would love to know who owns the copyright to this and why it hasn't been released before. Seems like a landmark piece of film in Jazz guitar history. It would great to hear and see Green's full Parisian TV performance. Damn right it would!!!!!

I'm not familiar with the 1969 Paris Grant Green recordings. Do you have more info? Is that a French studio date or a live recording? If a live recording, was it a professional recording for French radio - or amateur recording? I believe it is a part of this performance seen here, the tunes are apparently from the Grant Green trio portion of this concert with double bass and drums. Would love to know who owns the copyright to this and why it hasn't been released before. Seems like a landmark piece of film in Jazz guitar history.

Well this is great and unexpected news. I've always wanted to hear the organ version of Jean De Fleur. One of my favourite tunes. Someone must have done some lobbying to release these rejected tunes from the vault. Well done and thank you whoever you are.

Wow. What are the 5 unissued? From here? Jean De Fleur...rejected? Has there been a culture change. Someone has signed off on this? "Big" John Patton Quintet Tommy Turrentine (trumpet -2/4) George Braith (soprano saxophone, stritch -1/4) "Big" John Patton (organ) Grant Green (guitar) Ben Dixon (drums) Rudy Van Gelder Studio, Englewood Cliffs, NJ, July 11, 1963 1. tk.3 Blue John Blue Note BST 84143 2. tk.14 Nicety - 3. tk.15 Jean De Fleur rejected 4. tk.27 Extension - 5. tk.32 I Need You So - * Blue Note BST 84143 "Big" John Patton - Blue John (also released) = Blue Note CDP 7 84143 2 "Big" John Patton - Blue John "Big" John Patton Quartet George Braith (soprano saxophone) "Big" John Patton (organ) Grant Green (guitar) Ben Dixon (drums) Rudy Van Gelder Studio, Englewood Cliffs, NJ, August 2, 1963 tk.16 Hot Sauce Blue Note BST 84143 tk.20 Bermuda Clay House - tk.26 Chunky Slick rejected tk.29 Davene - tk.34 Dem Dirty Blues Blue Note BST 84143 tk.36 Country Girl - tk.45 Untitled Patton Tune rejected tk.62 Kinda Slick - * Blue Note BST 84143 "Big" John Patton - Blue John (also released) = Blue Note CDP 7 84143 2 "Big" John Patton - Blue John + add this to the list of unissued Grant Green recordings..... Grant Green Trio Paris 1969 I Don't Want Nobody To Give Me Nothing Oleo How Insensitive Untitled Blues in G Untitled Blues in F

As a relatively recent arrival I'm curious. Could you provide some links to threads and posts from the past that support your accusations? Else, you'll keep coming across as someone intent on simply stirring things up. How I perceive things here and how you perceive them will probably be vastly different. Just keep reading here and participating and enjoy. Unfortunately after being genuinely rapt to find such a board existed in 2006ish, my dismay has significantly increased over time. I think the most telling evidence about this board is not so much who chooses to engage and post here, but who doesn't? Perhaps it's better to keep things at a certain level. But For me, the whole tenor of the board is essentially tarnished. Anyway ....back to the boards ragging and thinly disguised vitriol towards Crouch and anyone else who doesn't project the cultural history of the music in ways that are acceptably inclusive to or highlighting peripheral identities.

My aunty who was Jewish told me there was religious Jews and 'the tribe of Jews'. Then again Perhaps my aunt was just trying to speak to me in a language she thought I would relate too. Maybe by expecting Jewish leaders to have some kind of civic or formal acknowledgement of past injustices I am being overly respectful to the concept of 'the tribe'. Which takes responsibility for it's self collectively If the idea of expressions of ownership of past injustices are so silly, perhaps a better question might be has there been much in the way of Jewish exploration and conciliatory literature or music or arts that extends itself the way the Baldwin or West pieces do. The West quote is so conciliatory it comes across as obsequious. In regards to things specific to here, I've read this board for nearly eight years and been saddened time and again by a significant grain of what I can only feel after all this time is a genuine overarching ignorance and perspective on what the music must mean to Black America and how that is over ridden by the self importance and egos of bit part players and other participants who had control of the cheque books and the texts. If this was a Shoah board then yes total respect, But this is a Jazz board, so respect where respect is due and all that.

The mouse that roared!

There's a lot to be said for constipation in some instances.

Ok, which "Jewish community" are we talking about? Worded like this, it sounds like there's only/just one monolithic/all-purpose "Jew", and I'll call bullshit on that right now, even though Question #2 refers to "communities", the lack of a "some" or anything has the same connotation. Reality is fucked up enough, and has really gotten us nowhere. Simplified/compressed reality might get us nowhere faster, but it's still nowhere. I've had enough of nowhere. I'll rephrase the questions (and answer them) - are pigs gonna be pigs? Yes, they are. And are people willing to go along with bullshit in order to get theirs? Yes they are. Now, I don't know that that gets us out of nowhere, but at least we know what the warning signs are. The wise one will look out for them everywhere, not just in nowhere. I'm sure that historically there was a Jewish community just the same as there was an African American community. Just the same as there was a Native American community. These things might be different across the country, although I guess a lot of this stuff with regard to African Americans and Jewish people seems to be focused on New York. Or at least that's what it seems to me. Historically over here there is a Jewish neighbourhood same as there is a Aboriginal neighbourhood. And even though those neighbourhoods have changed as people have moved on or out (or were forced out by the imposition of inner city development), the neighbourhoods are still symbolically associated with each cultural group. And each cultural group has their leaders and spokespeople that speak to varying degrees for and represent the community. In Australia though, the Jewish community really did emerge as refugees from Nazi Europe, and so much of the Jewish community here was established from families that arrived at the death knell before World War ll, which is probably different to the Jewish diaspora in New York. So sure there might have been some pluralist aspects to it, but marginalised people tended to be more self contained. And still do to a point. Of course I take into account what you posted upstream about rural communities and poverty bringing people together and into a relationship of sorts. I know this intimately from my time living on my Aboriginal families Country or Mission, (a very rural situation), where the historic support around the farming communities and the Mission families ran deep. And the allegiances and friendships are still honoured to this day. However the story was a little bit different in the city amongst the poverty and the masses. Perhaps because the aspect that was the land was taken out of the equation, and there was less to buffer and bring people together away from the full force of racism and poverty, so it was much more an us and them situation for Aboriginal community - not to say there wasn't a lot of White people that weren't considered like family, especially because so many White men married Aboriginal girls. And in some ways a lot of Aboriginal women historically were too shamed to marry Aboriginal men. So I think these questions I posted above are relevant questions and relevant to Jewish relationships with Black music. Especially to how or whether Jewish people were different in the way they related to Black people in terms of not just the overt racism, but also perhaps things like 'paternalism' or more subtle forms of dominance.

Interesting piece from 'do the math'. A couple of questions I'd like to pose. Do you think the Jewish community 'didn't' exploit Black American communities back in the day? Or if they did, has there ever been any formal or civic acknowledgement of this from Jewish leaders in the forms of apologies or even simple recognition. Another question might be, did Jewish communities buy into the White Suprematism of the US as well in their interactions or integrations with Black communities. And surely these issues must have had a significant effect on Jewish relations with Black American music, or to put it more ecumenically American music?

http://dothemath.typepad.com/dtm/5-reading-the-black-jazz-writers.html

Respond to jim sangrey's post why don't you. I'm no provocateur. You can't fob him off as dull and unsubtle.

So don't go worrying about your hunches of Black Anti semitism being defended here. Maybe explore why you can't see the execrable reverse racism arguments of the aforementioned writers/musicians -whose whole musical identities were/are based on Black Music history- for what it truly is. Gimme a break, willya? I'm not willing to be accused of racism by you. If you find it in my posts, in my language, fine, go point it out - if not, shut the fuck up now and take your crusade elsewhere. I'm sure your line of reasoning isn't plain wrong, I'm sure what you're pointing out is actually taking place - but I'm not the one to attack here. So you'll speak up when it's supposedly Black Anti-semitism rearing it's head. But quietly let it all be business as usual when it's a more insidious kind. No, that's my point: I fucking don't and would appreciate if you'd stop right there and now of insinuating such things. Thank you. I'm not the board police that has to keep freedom of speechers going into racist debates from stopping to do so, I by far don't read all that is going on (and frequently miss the "hot* discussions in the "in print" corner). Just because there's no statement of mine anywhere does not allow the conclusion that I agree. Certainly I don't accuse you of racism on any level. But was simply drawing your attention to how things can be perceived if you take a position on one thing and not another. Love to read you actually respond to the reverse racism people one day when the next round of posts raise it's head. You obviously felt the need to speak up last night anyway.

So don't go worrying about your hunches of Black Anti semitism being defended here. Maybe explore why you can't see the execrable reverse racism arguments of the aforementioned writers/musicians -whose whole musical identities were/are based on Black Music history- for what it truly is. Gimme a break, willya? I'm not willing to be accused of racism by you. If you find it in my posts, in my language, fine, go point it out - if not, shut the fuck up now and take your crusade elsewhere. I'm sure your line of reasoning isn't plain wrong, I'm sure what you're pointing out is actually taking place - but I'm not the one to attack here. So you'll speak up when it's supposedly Black Anti-semitism rearing it's head. But quietly let it all be business as usual when it's a more insidious kind. So don't go worrying about your hunches of Black Anti semitism being defended here. Maybe explore why you can't see the execrable reverse racism arguments of the aforementioned writers/musicians -whose whole musical identities were/are based on Black Music history- for what it truly is. Gimme a break, willya? I'm not willing to be accused of racism by you. If you find it in my posts, in my language, fine, go point it out - if not, shut the fuck up now and take your crusade elsewhere. I'm sure your line of reasoning isn't plain wrong, I'm sure what you're pointing out is actually taking place - but I'm not the one to attack here. Totally agree with Flurin. [edit] I also think that this has become a political discussion, which doesn't belong on this board since Jim A. pulled the dedicated forum. Yeah. The politics of Jazz. This is a Jazz Board. Unfortunately these issues go far beyond politics and to something much deeper.

He's not a troll. He's actually an old aquaintance, known for years outside of this BB. However the polemic, if true, stands on its own bottom and, again, is contemptable. I don't know what makes them the 'black face of jazz' unless you're being sarcastic. Funny thing is we musicians could give a rat's ass about any of this. Of course our voice counts nil unless someone's a star. I still plan to read Crouch's book---scanned it already and it looks good. If that works out it's on to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Alright, I'm kidding so knock it off. Just trying to add some much-needed levity. The Black face of jazz to me would be Black Americans who play Jazz. As opposed to non-Black Americans who play Jazz. So why is it that the consistent arguments that come across on-line and in interviews from Black Jazz musicians and Black Jazz writers of nearly all aesthetic persuasions - that in Marsalis's words decry the 'ever increasing decline of the musics negroidery and purpose' - don't seem to have made it to you, in the hot seat as it were? Is it just the voice of a vociferous few making it seem like an urgent concern for Black musicians as a whole, or maybe you're not part of their conversation?

Mr West was obviously putting his head and heart towards the most diplomatic thing to say here. Because it reads to me as one of the weakest pieces of writing of his I have seen. Despite it's conciliatory nature. Perhaps because he was suppressing a lot of 'stuff', it comes across as slightly 'overly' respectful. “I cannot be an optimist but I am a prisoner of hope.” ― Cornel West

My point would not to be defending Black anti-semitism but to respond with genuine incredulity at the failure of readers of this board to assess and respond to the racism and ignorance that is the guiding force behind the writings of messrs Lees, Sandke and Lowe, and anyone else that attaches their name to said writings. Including Larry Kart. This board seems to be a haven for their apologists and boosters. Surprising the amount of dismissive, angry and disappointed responses the tomes of Lees and Sandke got, but obviously the people who felt that way THE RIGHT WAY are to busy and alert to post here. Read the first pages of Lees chapter Dr. de Lerma, I Presume. Read the 'oh so reasonable' little salon discussion they are having and not feel sick in your guts. It's the same feeling I get reading almost everything of Sandke's (including his various efforts at 'journal' writing). Not to mention Lowe's incessant stream of 'vanity project' writing. Maybe it really is a universal Black and Indigenous thing to recognise this 'very polite and reasonable' discourse for what it is - as vile and offensive as the Black anti-semitism that has everyone up in arms at a moments notice. And don't think that focussing on 'this particular paragraph' or 'that particular point of view' is a way to argue through the legitimacy of this shit. It's inherent in every word and every sentence they write at some level. So don't go worrying about your hunches of Black Anti semitism being defended here. Maybe explore why you can't see the execrable reverse racism arguments of the aforementioned writers/musicians -whose whole musical identities were/are based on Black Music history- for what it truly is. Oh but that's right...this is AMERICAN musical history. However, I'll continue to acknowledge revere and respect Jazz as part of the great tradition of Black American Music first, and then American music after that. No matter how annoying that seems to be to the White Americans (and others) who frequent this board. Jazz is the cultural expression of the Black experience in America. It's not the cultural expression of White people's experience in America. Unless they both had the same experience. Which they so clearly did not. And Lowe, don't ever respond to one of my posts and proclaim your 'great insights' into Racism - and years of (mostly ignored) writings on Blackness. EVER.

This is 'nice' too. Cornel West > Quotes > Quotable Quote “Black anti-semitism is a form of underdog resentment and envy, directed at another underdog who has made it in American society. The remarkable upward mobility of American Jews--rooted chiefly in a history and culture that places a premium on higher education and self-organization--easily lends itself to myths of Jewish unity and homogeneity that have gained currency among other groups, especially among relatively unorganized groups like black Americans. The high visibility of Jews in the upper reaches of the academy, journalism, the entertainment industry, and the professions--though less so percentage-wise in corporate America and national political office--is viewed less as a result of hard work and success fairly won and more as a matter of favoritism and nepotism among Jews. Ironically, calls for black solidarity and achievement are often modeled on myths of Jewish unity--as both groups respond to American xenophobia and racism. But in times such as these, some blacks view Jews as obstacles rather than allies in the struggle for racial justice.” ― Cornel West

What's making you sick? The fact that the two guys I have read you champion on these boards as 'good guys' (Marsalis and Crouch), were still prepared to use extreme racialised language in their own 'Corporate Black Power' ambitions. Yes. And I defended them, not the same as championing them, when unfairly maligned. This is different, and sickening. Anyway, I may have changed my views from a Wynton-hater but it really doesn't matter to me much. Both those guys were nice to me when I met them, and the only thing I have to go on is experience. But this is indefensible and anyway I don't want to get into a whole thing on it---doubt that the rest of the board does either. So just let the troll in post 230 'put it out there', and let it hang in the air. And the Black face of jazz, can forever be dismissed as synonymous with anti-semiticism and reverse racism, or even worse .........bad Fusion

If by you "controlled by people who read the Torah" is an "ordinary mannerism," you must hang out in some interesting places. 'ordinary mannerism' is obviously a reference to the MUSIC Marsalis makes, not the racism inherent in the WORDS attributed to them (Marsalis/Crouch). As in -mannerism - in the manner of - or perhaps even an actual Jazz Mannerism as a specific movement, which it essentially was/is. Funny how this board is peppered with people who vehemently respond to the heightened racist tones of Black musicians and writers who transgress the 'brotherhood of man', when assertively claiming the music for their own or highlighting the unequal or exploitative practices of the past (and their current modes of White-out), yet fail to register that their own assertions or support for the reverse racism - or it's all a part of a whole' whinging of a bunch of peripheral self centred egotists are just as 'racially' vile as the shit they are outraged by. "'ordinary mannerism' is obviously a reference to the MUSIC Marsalis makes, not the racism inherent in the WORDS attributed to them (Marsalis/Crouch). "As in -mannerism - in the manner of - or perhaps even an actual Jazz Mannerism as a specific movement, which it essentially was/is." Sorry -- but it sure wasn't obvious to me that "ordinary Mannerism" was "a reference to the MUSIC Marsalis makes" rather than to the relative ordinariness among black musicians and the black community as a whole of anger against white society. In any case, though, do you mean something like "Marsalis' music is traditionally inclined in manner, i.e. in style"? I'm genuinely at a loss here. Also, what then are you referring to by "the greater truth [that Marsalis and Crouch] express," which is also a "universal Black truth"? I thought that you meant "the greater truth they express" and the "universal Black truth" to refer to anger against white oppressors. No? Well obviously the Marsalis movement was a way to make In The Tradition a 'classical' or canonical music. The rise of Jazz education faculties across the world has aided that. Surely you're familiar with 'mannered' or 'mannerist' - when an artistic expression attempts to replicate the formal characteristics of a previous moment but fails to grasp its essence. So maybe 'In The Manner of" as opposed to in the tradition. Failing to grasp the essence may not be a failure to grasp the language - just a difference in time and place. I like the fact that Marsalis and co claimed the music back as a Black Classical Music even if I never really want to listen to their outputs. With regard to universal Black and Indigenous truth, well the words Marsalis uses in the highlighted paragraphs are all fairly matter of fact to anyone that has a politicised identity. Obviously the specifics of his anti-semiticism are particular to an American or New York context. It seems to me, from reading the Marsalis quotes, that he is conflating the White Supremacy of the US fathers, with the modern equivalent concerning Jazz and Jewish people controlling the production, distribution and economy of Black Music. And then he equates this with the 'ever increasing decline of the musics negroidery and purpose'. And he also says that because Jews were outsiders and marginalised people in Europe, they were able to come to America and exploit an even more marginalised and dehumanised peoples. When we talk about some aspects of universal truths, this is equivalent to an Australian Indigenous reality, because essentially the most marginalised and mistreated people of English speaking Europe (convicts and low class 'adventure capitalists'), came here and stole, exploited and controlled Aboriginal people and lands. Because Aboriginal people were considered nothing more than savages and apes, even the convicts were re-invested with a degree of 'culture'. It seems that this 'conflating' of White Supremacy and 20thC Jewish exploitation of Black communities seems to be a common denominator amongst Black Intellectuals across the board, from Politics to Culture. Are there any Black intellectuals that write specifically about the causes and symptoms of this? Has Tavis Smiley and Cornell West ever done a show about this? Democracy Now? I remember Eddie Murphy taking the piss out of Jesse Jackson! Don't Let Me Down Hymie Town! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNz5XnvZHhk

What these guys are doing and what you do are a million miles away from each other, culturally and formally. Not so much a gap as a chasm. Did you get to chew the fat with DJ Logic much. Or just hand him the cheque?

This was posted on the board sometime ago. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T39ZaFT1kA0

That's Chris Dave on drums! This old White farte digs the drumhedz. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QkgiuczqGI The guitar players name is Sharkey not Shakey. Yeah, thats some really bad Fusion.

Really! you've actually got some currency with the Jazz/hip-hop thing. I always thought Allen Lowe and Groove were two! To paraphrase a Woody Allen line.