robertoart

Respond to jim sangrey's post why don't you. I'm no provocateur. You can't fob him off as dull and unsubtle.

So don't go worrying about your hunches of Black Anti semitism being defended here. Maybe explore why you can't see the execrable reverse racism arguments of the aforementioned writers/musicians -whose whole musical identities were/are based on Black Music history- for what it truly is. Gimme a break, willya? I'm not willing to be accused of racism by you. If you find it in my posts, in my language, fine, go point it out - if not, shut the fuck up now and take your crusade elsewhere. I'm sure your line of reasoning isn't plain wrong, I'm sure what you're pointing out is actually taking place - but I'm not the one to attack here. So you'll speak up when it's supposedly Black Anti-semitism rearing it's head. But quietly let it all be business as usual when it's a more insidious kind. No, that's my point: I fucking don't and would appreciate if you'd stop right there and now of insinuating such things. Thank you. I'm not the board police that has to keep freedom of speechers going into racist debates from stopping to do so, I by far don't read all that is going on (and frequently miss the "hot* discussions in the "in print" corner). Just because there's no statement of mine anywhere does not allow the conclusion that I agree. Certainly I don't accuse you of racism on any level. But was simply drawing your attention to how things can be perceived if you take a position on one thing and not another. Love to read you actually respond to the reverse racism people one day when the next round of posts raise it's head. You obviously felt the need to speak up last night anyway.

So don't go worrying about your hunches of Black Anti semitism being defended here. Maybe explore why you can't see the execrable reverse racism arguments of the aforementioned writers/musicians -whose whole musical identities were/are based on Black Music history- for what it truly is. Gimme a break, willya? I'm not willing to be accused of racism by you. If you find it in my posts, in my language, fine, go point it out - if not, shut the fuck up now and take your crusade elsewhere. I'm sure your line of reasoning isn't plain wrong, I'm sure what you're pointing out is actually taking place - but I'm not the one to attack here. So you'll speak up when it's supposedly Black Anti-semitism rearing it's head. But quietly let it all be business as usual when it's a more insidious kind. So don't go worrying about your hunches of Black Anti semitism being defended here. Maybe explore why you can't see the execrable reverse racism arguments of the aforementioned writers/musicians -whose whole musical identities were/are based on Black Music history- for what it truly is. Gimme a break, willya? I'm not willing to be accused of racism by you. If you find it in my posts, in my language, fine, go point it out - if not, shut the fuck up now and take your crusade elsewhere. I'm sure your line of reasoning isn't plain wrong, I'm sure what you're pointing out is actually taking place - but I'm not the one to attack here. Totally agree with Flurin. [edit] I also think that this has become a political discussion, which doesn't belong on this board since Jim A. pulled the dedicated forum. Yeah. The politics of Jazz. This is a Jazz Board. Unfortunately these issues go far beyond politics and to something much deeper.

He's not a troll. He's actually an old aquaintance, known for years outside of this BB. However the polemic, if true, stands on its own bottom and, again, is contemptable. I don't know what makes them the 'black face of jazz' unless you're being sarcastic. Funny thing is we musicians could give a rat's ass about any of this. Of course our voice counts nil unless someone's a star. I still plan to read Crouch's book---scanned it already and it looks good. If that works out it's on to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Alright, I'm kidding so knock it off. Just trying to add some much-needed levity. The Black face of jazz to me would be Black Americans who play Jazz. As opposed to non-Black Americans who play Jazz. So why is it that the consistent arguments that come across on-line and in interviews from Black Jazz musicians and Black Jazz writers of nearly all aesthetic persuasions - that in Marsalis's words decry the 'ever increasing decline of the musics negroidery and purpose' - don't seem to have made it to you, in the hot seat as it were? Is it just the voice of a vociferous few making it seem like an urgent concern for Black musicians as a whole, or maybe you're not part of their conversation?

Mr West was obviously putting his head and heart towards the most diplomatic thing to say here. Because it reads to me as one of the weakest pieces of writing of his I have seen. Despite it's conciliatory nature. Perhaps because he was suppressing a lot of 'stuff', it comes across as slightly 'overly' respectful. “I cannot be an optimist but I am a prisoner of hope.” ― Cornel West

My point would not to be defending Black anti-semitism but to respond with genuine incredulity at the failure of readers of this board to assess and respond to the racism and ignorance that is the guiding force behind the writings of messrs Lees, Sandke and Lowe, and anyone else that attaches their name to said writings. Including Larry Kart. This board seems to be a haven for their apologists and boosters. Surprising the amount of dismissive, angry and disappointed responses the tomes of Lees and Sandke got, but obviously the people who felt that way THE RIGHT WAY are to busy and alert to post here. Read the first pages of Lees chapter Dr. de Lerma, I Presume. Read the 'oh so reasonable' little salon discussion they are having and not feel sick in your guts. It's the same feeling I get reading almost everything of Sandke's (including his various efforts at 'journal' writing). Not to mention Lowe's incessant stream of 'vanity project' writing. Maybe it really is a universal Black and Indigenous thing to recognise this 'very polite and reasonable' discourse for what it is - as vile and offensive as the Black anti-semitism that has everyone up in arms at a moments notice. And don't think that focussing on 'this particular paragraph' or 'that particular point of view' is a way to argue through the legitimacy of this shit. It's inherent in every word and every sentence they write at some level. So don't go worrying about your hunches of Black Anti semitism being defended here. Maybe explore why you can't see the execrable reverse racism arguments of the aforementioned writers/musicians -whose whole musical identities were/are based on Black Music history- for what it truly is. Oh but that's right...this is AMERICAN musical history. However, I'll continue to acknowledge revere and respect Jazz as part of the great tradition of Black American Music first, and then American music after that. No matter how annoying that seems to be to the White Americans (and others) who frequent this board. Jazz is the cultural expression of the Black experience in America. It's not the cultural expression of White people's experience in America. Unless they both had the same experience. Which they so clearly did not. And Lowe, don't ever respond to one of my posts and proclaim your 'great insights' into Racism - and years of (mostly ignored) writings on Blackness. EVER.

This is 'nice' too. Cornel West > Quotes > Quotable Quote “Black anti-semitism is a form of underdog resentment and envy, directed at another underdog who has made it in American society. The remarkable upward mobility of American Jews--rooted chiefly in a history and culture that places a premium on higher education and self-organization--easily lends itself to myths of Jewish unity and homogeneity that have gained currency among other groups, especially among relatively unorganized groups like black Americans. The high visibility of Jews in the upper reaches of the academy, journalism, the entertainment industry, and the professions--though less so percentage-wise in corporate America and national political office--is viewed less as a result of hard work and success fairly won and more as a matter of favoritism and nepotism among Jews. Ironically, calls for black solidarity and achievement are often modeled on myths of Jewish unity--as both groups respond to American xenophobia and racism. But in times such as these, some blacks view Jews as obstacles rather than allies in the struggle for racial justice.” ― Cornel West

What's making you sick? The fact that the two guys I have read you champion on these boards as 'good guys' (Marsalis and Crouch), were still prepared to use extreme racialised language in their own 'Corporate Black Power' ambitions. Yes. And I defended them, not the same as championing them, when unfairly maligned. This is different, and sickening. Anyway, I may have changed my views from a Wynton-hater but it really doesn't matter to me much. Both those guys were nice to me when I met them, and the only thing I have to go on is experience. But this is indefensible and anyway I don't want to get into a whole thing on it---doubt that the rest of the board does either. So just let the troll in post 230 'put it out there', and let it hang in the air. And the Black face of jazz, can forever be dismissed as synonymous with anti-semiticism and reverse racism, or even worse .........bad Fusion

If by you "controlled by people who read the Torah" is an "ordinary mannerism," you must hang out in some interesting places. 'ordinary mannerism' is obviously a reference to the MUSIC Marsalis makes, not the racism inherent in the WORDS attributed to them (Marsalis/Crouch). As in -mannerism - in the manner of - or perhaps even an actual Jazz Mannerism as a specific movement, which it essentially was/is. Funny how this board is peppered with people who vehemently respond to the heightened racist tones of Black musicians and writers who transgress the 'brotherhood of man', when assertively claiming the music for their own or highlighting the unequal or exploitative practices of the past (and their current modes of White-out), yet fail to register that their own assertions or support for the reverse racism - or it's all a part of a whole' whinging of a bunch of peripheral self centred egotists are just as 'racially' vile as the shit they are outraged by. "'ordinary mannerism' is obviously a reference to the MUSIC Marsalis makes, not the racism inherent in the WORDS attributed to them (Marsalis/Crouch). "As in -mannerism - in the manner of - or perhaps even an actual Jazz Mannerism as a specific movement, which it essentially was/is." Sorry -- but it sure wasn't obvious to me that "ordinary Mannerism" was "a reference to the MUSIC Marsalis makes" rather than to the relative ordinariness among black musicians and the black community as a whole of anger against white society. In any case, though, do you mean something like "Marsalis' music is traditionally inclined in manner, i.e. in style"? I'm genuinely at a loss here. Also, what then are you referring to by "the greater truth [that Marsalis and Crouch] express," which is also a "universal Black truth"? I thought that you meant "the greater truth they express" and the "universal Black truth" to refer to anger against white oppressors. No? Well obviously the Marsalis movement was a way to make In The Tradition a 'classical' or canonical music. The rise of Jazz education faculties across the world has aided that. Surely you're familiar with 'mannered' or 'mannerist' - when an artistic expression attempts to replicate the formal characteristics of a previous moment but fails to grasp its essence. So maybe 'In The Manner of" as opposed to in the tradition. Failing to grasp the essence may not be a failure to grasp the language - just a difference in time and place. I like the fact that Marsalis and co claimed the music back as a Black Classical Music even if I never really want to listen to their outputs. With regard to universal Black and Indigenous truth, well the words Marsalis uses in the highlighted paragraphs are all fairly matter of fact to anyone that has a politicised identity. Obviously the specifics of his anti-semiticism are particular to an American or New York context. It seems to me, from reading the Marsalis quotes, that he is conflating the White Supremacy of the US fathers, with the modern equivalent concerning Jazz and Jewish people controlling the production, distribution and economy of Black Music. And then he equates this with the 'ever increasing decline of the musics negroidery and purpose'. And he also says that because Jews were outsiders and marginalised people in Europe, they were able to come to America and exploit an even more marginalised and dehumanised peoples. When we talk about some aspects of universal truths, this is equivalent to an Australian Indigenous reality, because essentially the most marginalised and mistreated people of English speaking Europe (convicts and low class 'adventure capitalists'), came here and stole, exploited and controlled Aboriginal people and lands. Because Aboriginal people were considered nothing more than savages and apes, even the convicts were re-invested with a degree of 'culture'. It seems that this 'conflating' of White Supremacy and 20thC Jewish exploitation of Black communities seems to be a common denominator amongst Black Intellectuals across the board, from Politics to Culture. Are there any Black intellectuals that write specifically about the causes and symptoms of this? Has Tavis Smiley and Cornell West ever done a show about this? Democracy Now? I remember Eddie Murphy taking the piss out of Jesse Jackson! Don't Let Me Down Hymie Town! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNz5XnvZHhk

What these guys are doing and what you do are a million miles away from each other, culturally and formally. Not so much a gap as a chasm. Did you get to chew the fat with DJ Logic much. Or just hand him the cheque?

This was posted on the board sometime ago. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T39ZaFT1kA0

That's Chris Dave on drums! This old White farte digs the drumhedz. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QkgiuczqGI The guitar players name is Sharkey not Shakey. Yeah, thats some really bad Fusion.

Really! you've actually got some currency with the Jazz/hip-hop thing. I always thought Allen Lowe and Groove were two! To paraphrase a Woody Allen line.

What I heard of Glasper at last summer's Chicago Jazz Festival sounded like amateur 1970s fusion music with a rapper added. What the music actually sounds like to a bunch of old White farts and what the music actually means to the musicians and those that are part of their environment are two different things. Glasper is conscious of young Black audiences, so a smooth Jazz Fusion sound and rapping are not out of sync. The conceptual aspect is not just about aesthetic form but environmental/situational context.

Tiny Tim on Blue Note! If he was still alive and popular....it'd probably happen.

Jazz Gunn and Daktari is a great twofer. Why would you want Gunn by itself? Don't want Daktari for the same reason I don't want Jimmy Page's pants. Annoys me. Jimmy Page looks like Ruth Lion posing for the cover of another Blue Note album.

What's making you sick? The fact that the two guys I have read you champion on these boards as 'good guys' (Marsalis and Crouch), were still prepared to use extreme racialised language in their own 'Corporate Black Power' ambitions.

If by you "controlled by people who read the Torah" is an "ordinary mannerism," you must hang out in some interesting places. 'ordinary mannerism' is obviously a reference to the MUSIC Marsalis makes, not the racism inherent in the WORDS attributed to them (Marsalis/Crouch). As in -mannerism - in the manner of - or perhaps even an actual Jazz Mannerism as a specific movement, which it essentially was/is. Funny how this board is peppered with people who vehemently respond to the heightened racist tones of Black musicians and writers who transgress the 'brotherhood of man', when assertively claiming the music for their own or highlighting the unequal or exploitative practices of the past (and their current modes of White-out), yet fail to register that their own assertions or support for the reverse racism - or it's all a part of a whole' whinging of a bunch of peripheral self centred egotists are just as 'racially' vile as the shit they are outraged by.

And Lester Bowie did say if he had Wynton's chops to combine with his (Bowies) conceptual mind, you'd actually have a kind of super musician who'd be too good for this world!

You can compartmentalise the issues all you want and say that because Marsalis and Crouch are involved with ordinary Mannerisms that the greater truth they express is not a universal Black truth. But it is. If the same message is coming from Gary Bartz or someone else with artistic and/or real street cache is it still a misreading of reality. Lester Bowie spoke of much the same things. Especially in regard to the 'de-Blackening' of Jazz. Every Black musician with a mind to speak out says the same things. They all aren't deluded, paranoid, jealous or money and power hungry which seems to be the standard riposte to anyone that asserts their right to intellectual property and how they choose to represent it.

Not this old shit again. The poor be trodden marginalised White Jazz Identity (ie anyone who isn't Black). Wynton says Black people are in a war. Name me one Black or Indigenous person who doesn't know they're still in a war. Seems what Wynton is talking about is Colonisation. Replace the Jazz context with 'stolen land', the opressed body' or any other Black or Indigenous struggle - and the anti-semiticism with the more generalised White and his statement is transferable to every other human rights struggle across the board. And he is identifying Jewish people as historical and contemporary Jazz Colonisers.. Take it or leave it. He may have moderated his sensibilities since the time of this statement but I guarantee he knows he is still in an identity war. And it's his music. Remember Muhummad Ali saying White people were the devil? Parkinson's couldn't understand why he would say that. Wonder what Wynton thinks of The Italian Jazz Identity? I might research my own book. 'How To Record, Stage and Promote Black American Music for Profit and Pleasure'

Music Matters are sticking their nose in the BN legacy. I can just see it......a 45rpm double album called 'Trainwreck". .........for those discerning listeners who are ready to take the next step beyond Blue Train!

They really understood the creative spirit. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxRS6CGrhtM

And no Soul Woman

Of course it would be great to have this session out in the public domain. It's also really good to hear a counter argument from a knowledgable listener regarding the integrity and quality of this music. That is really interesting. And makes you think the basic line of argument about these last few vault cloggers that 'how could most of these sessions with the greats still in the vaults be anything other than worthy' has to be mostly the reality. Possibly generational change (in Japan and the US), has maybe lead to a loss of interest and passion to finish the re-issue and vault research 'movement' that I can trace from the late Seventies (in Japan mostly god bless em), to the early to mid 2000's.