robertoart

Mark -- I feel I was wrongish in that review in pointing so much toward Coltrane (pianists are by and large pianists, no?), and certainly I was off about McCoy, whose finest work was yet to come. Herbie the accompanist with Miles et al. was something else, but I admit to never having been that interested in most Herbie piano solos (an exception would be one track on that terrific Blue Note Bobby Hutcherson quartet album with Albert Stinson and Joe Chambers) because they so often seem to ... I don't know, rather pre-determined and "glassy" to me. The concept, so to speak, and the execution seem to separate; not much sense of in the moment (but I can see where that might be a partial goal on his part). The electronic Herbie is a whole other ballgame, I would say. P.S. OTOH, about McCoy, weren't the glories to come in good part because he stepped away from his version of patterned glassiness and became much more rhythmically and harmonically turbulent and in the moment? (Albeit, in later McCoy rhythmic and harmonic turbulence were essentially one.) I understand the idea of "glassiness" but would suggest that relates to Herbie's impressionistic touch and harmony. Perhaps your aesthetic tastes lay elsewhere and "Speak Like a Child" in particular emphasizes the qualities you respond to the least, which are also italicized by what Jim identified earlier as an unusually gauzy recording mix for Blue Note. Is it a coincidence that you have always had issues with Bill Evans who has similar impressionistic qualities and who influenced Herbie in those areas?)The disconnect you feel between concept and execution might be a registering of the intellectualism in Herbie's playing that to you sounds too on the surface and thus hits you as overly pre-determined. Forgive the armchair deconstruction of your analysis. I don't hear it this way at all. For me Herbie is one of the most truly spontaneous improversers in jazz. When he starts a solo, to a degree unusual even in an art based on in-the-moment invention, you really don't know what's about to happen. Now, obviously, he's incredibly studied on some level and has a language that he employs, but he is in no way a "lick" or "pattern" player" in the sense of constructing solos out of pre-practiced materials or applying them in an overly studied way. (Which is not to say patterns don't sometimes crop up as they do in everybody's playing.) Miles used to tell the guys, "I pay you to practice on the bandstand." I think Herbie exemplifies that quality in the best sense. For me, Hancock's achievement was to reconcile a bunch of previously disparate pianism -- impressionistic harmony and refined touch of Bill Evans, swinging momentum of Bud Powell, drama of Ahmad Jamal, funkiness of Horace Silver and ebullient bounce of Wynton Kelly and Red Garland. That synthesis then becomes a new and highly influential template, enriched by Herbie's own newly advanced harmonic palette, his linear invention, his rhythmic independence and, again, his spontaneity. I'm in no way claiming his infallibility. I recognize the track record gets less consistent in more recent decades, the issues of taste, etc. I also know a good many people, including some great musicians, who respect Herbie more than they love him and who have never been as emotionally moved by his work as they are by, well, McCoy for starters. I also recognize that someone's weaknesses are often lodged inside their strengths and vice versa. I'm just just trying to articulate what it is that I'm responding to, and with Herbie it's a lot. At his frequent best I find him more stimulating and satisfying than any other pianist in the contemporary post-bop idiom. There is also a remarkable diversity, an adaptibility, that's worth noting. Here are two sideman appearances that illustrate the range. I think he sounds great in both on every level but would particularly note the variety of phrasing and rhythm and the spontaneity elements since that's what started all of this in the first place. As always, everyone's mileage may vary. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CXsIMakAJo Some of the most insightful stuff I've read about Herbie Hancock.

Very funny story. Really humanises these giants.

That's a word used to describe what is more commonly known as the bridge. I think Monk might have used it too. I've heard it a few times over the years, but not too many. I thought it was either a turnaround or the bridge. Thanks for the confirmation.

Actually it's just coming to light now. They were mostly whites only, Allen Lowe is investigating

Very great and interesting read. Especially Melvin Gibbs take on Sharrock and Last Exit, Ornette ect. He says he will not say much about Last Exit 'beyond this', and then goes on to talk his head off Obviously he was enjoying the chance to discuss the music.

Here is a meaning I found at a contemporary slang dictionary for the term 'bait'. Reminded me of the title 'Good Bait', that I figured probably wasn't about fishing. bait 1. adj. To describe a location as unsafe, or high profile. Usually refers to the danger of being caught by police. "I ain’t smokin’ here, this place is mad bait." Another term I often wondered about is the word 'channel' that George Braith refers to in liner notes, when talking about one of his compositions. I assume he is referring to the turnaround in a chord progression , but it is something I have otherwise not heard used anywhere else.

Anyone familiar with this film about the Boston jazz club 1369. A link to this clip was posted on the Hoffman Forums. It seems the film is unavailable.

Well Praise Jesus, Allen! Everybody's happy!! Cause for celebration, I'd say! well the id talkers always shake it up until the ego steps in to pull em back into line.

Who's the model on the Tough cover

That's committment

Nobody on CTI was occupying a progressive or conceptual space in the public's mind. Hancock however, was always considered a 'progressive' musician, especially by those with more of a foot in the rock camp, even up to his involvement with Laswell. Is this what your beef is? That he was essentially a conservative musician, who should not be afforded any more privileged status than the more blatantly commercial CTI side of Fusion. The 'title' Speak Like A Child, reflects the 'Picasso syndrome', that plagued art and music still caught up in Modernist concepts. Ornette was also responsible for this. The music was ahead of the words and concepts, and this reflects the sometimes embarrassing titles and texts used by some musicians (and labels) to represent and frame the music - when it wasn't being marketed to only a Soul Jazz audience. Hancock was not alone in this, and probably didn't spend as much time thinking through the conceptualisation of his words. Not as much as Joyce anyway First of all, let's wish Herbie a happy 72nd birthday. (Born April 12, 1940) Now, Allen: In the immortal words of Jeff Spicoli, "Hey, dude, what's your problem?!" Are you saying you've never listened to the record because you don't like the title or are you saying you heard it once but thought the title was so dumb you swore off it forevermore? Either way I'm having a hard time processing. Not liking the music is certainly legitimate, but using the title as a sign of intellectual failure when the music itself is remarkably sophisticated on every level seems like throwing out the baby with the bath water and all that. But, ok, we all live in the world we choose to live in. But for me, I want "Speak Like a Child" as part of my soundtrack options (not to mention the rest of the Blue Notes.) Headhunters, too, for that matter, especially the absolutely killin' live double album from Japan called "Flood." Also, all the Mwandishi band music and much of the later work too -- but certainly not all and I would of course admit he's produced a lot of schlock along the way and that, on the whole, the records in recent decades have not been as satisfying as the live performances that I've heard. But there are exceptions -- I thought the live record with Brecker and Hargrove, etc. was a great jazz recording and I thought the Joni Mitchell record was a great pop record. But back to the title , which I rather like or at least don't see as any more problematic than, say, "Let My Children Hear Music," "A Child is Born," or "Inka Dinka Doo." Herbie is quoted in the liner notes (by Nat Hentoff) that the title came from Frank Wolff: "It's a result of a picture that a friend of mine, David Blythewood, took. I dug it so much I brought it to Frank for use as the cover for this album. Frank said it was so evocative a photography becasue of the innocence and naivete in it. And so I started thinking about the quality of innocence when I was writing this song. Clearly the music doesn't sound too much like what's going on today -- war, riots, the stock market getting busted up. And the reason it doesn't I realized is that I'm optimistic. I believe in hope and peace and love. It's not that I'm blind to what's going on, but I feel this music is a foward look into what could be a bright future. The philosophy represented in this number, and to a large extent in the album as a while, is child-like. But not childish. By that I mean there are certain elements of childhood we lose and wish we could have back -- purity, spontaneity. When they do return to us, we're at our best. So what I'm telling the world is: Speak like a child. Thank and feel in terms of hope and the possibilitiesl of making ourselves less impure." Ok, you might find this all a little too precious and embarassing (I don't), but even if you do, I would suggest, contrary to Freelancer above, that Herbie certainly has thought through pretty deeply the conceptualism behind the words. Ok yes. Point taken in regard to this title. It's still pretty corny though And he didn't follow through on the concept with...er...the same sense of commitment as Ornette

I can access that journal but with a one year delay... Please report back in 1 year

No, dumb is Elton's "Captain Fantastic & the Brown Dirt Cowboy" From the mouth of babes

Here is what looks like a fascinating article on A Jackson In Your House. Unfortunately I am not affiliated, so can't get past the moneywall. My link

A trampled foreigner.

Nobody on CTI was occupying a progressive or conceptual space in the public's mind. Hancock however, was always considered a 'progressive' musician, especially by those with more of a foot in the rock camp, even up to his involvement with Laswell. Is this what your beef is? That he was essentially a conservative musician, who should not be afforded any more privileged status than the more blatantly commercial CTI side of Fusion. The 'title' Speak Like A Child, reflects the 'Picasso syndrome', that plagued art and music still caught up in Modernist concepts. Ornette was also responsible for this. The music was ahead of the words and concepts, and this reflects the sometimes embarrassing titles and texts used by some musicians (and labels) to represent and frame the music - when it wasn't being marketed to only a Soul Jazz audience. Hancock was not alone in this, and probably didn't spend as much time thinking through the conceptualisation of his words. Not as much as Joyce anyway

Is there any particular one, you care to 'advance'?

Here are some suggestions taken from a thread on Jazz Corner - a bit of jazz board intertextuality I've always heard that it's a phonetic mis-transformation of the french "Après Vous" (like "After you" I guess), that you say when holding a door for someone, from a time CP was playing France. From same thread re-"Klactoveesedstene"; I read (in the Penguin Guide, maybe?) that it was thought that "Klactoveesedstene" was a corruption of "Klact, auf wiedersehen", and meant something like "goodbye to noise".

From: Francis Davis, (1986). In the moment: jazz in the 1980s. New York, Oxford University Press, page 47 http://wallofsound.wordpress.com/2007/06/19/misunderstanding-%E2%80%98flowers-for-albert%E2%80%99/ Oh, just transcribing. I thought I read somewhere else, David Murray talking about actually making arrangements, based on those choruses. Maybe he never got around to it. Obviously a solo close to his heart. Perhaps the Stanley Crouch influence from his early days. Well, my memory serves OK. My link

Almost certainly they were worked out beforehand. Maybe pre-composed solos would be a good topic for a thread. Don't know if this has been discussed here before. In the classical music threads But seriously, I can't think of many actual instances within the jazz tradition. Third stream music perhaps? I have read where composers have made arrangements based on famous solos. In other words. where previously improvised solos were re-contextualised. I remember reading about David Murray doing this kind of thing with the famous Paul Gonsalves solo from Newport, but never heard the results, so not sure whether this was an approximation of Gonsalves original solo or not. On the other hand, many of my favourite soloists are often accused of playing the same lines over and over again, so kind of another take on the idea of pre-composed soloing Minimalist paintings are really BIG

I suppose this secret chord will only work for piano players. With your ten finger options

I must say, that's most unusual

Miscellaneous - Non-Political, but I see I should have started it in Miscellaneous - music instead like this one.

It's always been one of my favourites...seriously