troyk

Man, "easing back in" by joining the Brown and Roach Quintet...wow. I read some years ago some comments from Sonny that were along the lines of crediting Clifford Brown for helping him see his way to recovery. He didn't exactly say that in this EXCELLENT interview, but it did give some good context. He got out and was clean, but said he was back around musicians and people who were using, which makes it harder, when he was asked to join this band. In this particular interview he moved off of the topic of recovery pretty quickly, but knowing what a great band that was and hearing wonderful things he was saying about Clifford and knowing that Brownie wasn't using, it seems it was perfect timing for him. Too bad we didn't get another 20 years of that group. I also really appreciate how much respect Newk showed to Harold Land in that interview. Class act. Such talent isn't always accompanied by such humility.

I knew I was coming to the right place. Thanks for the great answer!

Someone who is working on a story connected with Sonny Rollins birthday asked me for some historical context about his brief partnership with Clifford Brown and Max Roach. I fancy myself a Clifford Brown historian, but as I started answering her questions, I started to realize that I had never really understood if the 2 records that Newk made with them in 1956 were the beginning of that group's move from Harold Land to Sonny Rollins or if they were just dates that Sonny happened to be on. Does anyone know the story about how Sonny came to be on Basin Street? I can draw some assumptions about Sonny Rollins Plus Four. It was on Prestige, rather than Emarcy, so it was released under his name and featured some of his compositions. That record alone wouldn't make me question things, but the combination of those 2 recorded between Jan and March of 1956 do leave a question. Of course Brownie's tragic death in June of that year, may have hidden the answer forever.

Very nice, Bertrand. As the west coast BW nutcase, a friend had already sent it to me. Warmed my heart, though. What do you mean, "Sheet music"? I might be able to help. Are you looking for his compositions? I've transcribed them previously and could probably create sheet music for them. Is that what you're going for? Troy

Bertrand, I do remember now. I wish that I had made that connection that night, but my head was elsewhere, as you can imagine. The trip to DC was kind of sudden for me. A conference for my wife that I kind of tagged along on and I hadn't been able to get any solid info on whether Butch had been playing or not. So, I just took a chance. I had been off the plane for about an hour and a half, when we walked in the door and the whole thing was a very big deal to me. I know that he's your home town guy, but every musician has that one voice on their instrument that they have connected with from recordings and mine was 10 feet away from me playing standards. Of course, I had followed his story for the last several years, which made it all that much more dramatic. I do plan to visit again. Not sure when or how, but I have a few friends in DC and Philly who I can stay with. On the discography. I'm happy to do the work. More than happy. I think it would be great to work together on it. It bothers me to see incomplete or inaccurate info out there. If you have unpublished information, so much the better. If you look at the biographies on wikipedia and allmusic, I think you'll see my point that they could be better too. But, I really don't feel like I could write those. I'm happy to however, if you provide the content. Some of what I would like to update is factual, AllMusic says he was in Monk's band from '63-64 for example, which is an understatement of the fact. But, I also think that we could summarize his life story better in a few paragraphs that who ever did. Not me, but those of you who are closer to him. At least update it. And, I'm happy to do the work and make sure it gets updated. Regarding the comments on composer credits, I agree that they aren't always meaningful. There are a lot of debates on who wrote vs who claimed to have written which songs on the catalogue, but in the case, we're talking about an unsung hero who we'd like to raise awareness of. Bertrand has first hand facts from weekly conversations with him that we should capture as part of the history so that they aren't lost. My little dead end on "Butch's Blues"? I just thought when I saw the title that maybe he wrote it, but when I was informed the the liner notes said Dorham wrote it for him, I downloaded it for him and played it while i was cooking dinner. It sounded kinda bass soloie and I thought "how could a trumpet player have written that". Maybe he did just stick his name on it or maybe whoever wrote the liner notes got it wrong. Then I sat down with me food and listened again, attentively and recongized the motif that he was playing from "Quiet Kenny" Dorham and PC traded it back and forth through their solos on Blue Spring Shuffle a year earlier and I always thought it was wicked cool. So, if the recording dates were reversed, I would assume that Dorham and PC were quoting BW in their solos, but as it is, I have to side with the liner notes. Dorham brought that into the studio and said "Hey Butch, let's build a whole head around this thing that PC and I did last year." That's where most of my jazz history comes from, which is why I get so excited when someone like Bertrand, has actual "I asked him and he told me versions". Let's make sure to capture this stuff. I will clean up and post what I have in the BW thread this weekend.

I've always really thought of Mr. Dorham as one of the great arrangers. His bands seemed to take on more texture and life than: Theme - I solo - You solo - He solos - Theme Out of the era. He was just marvelous. I can't listen enough to him. I love when people try to blindfold test me on him. You can hardley ever slip him past me. You'll never be forgotten, Kenny.

That is me. <pregnant pause> This is where screen names fail us. Did you play something that night? I wish I had made that connection before. You and I had corresponded before. Regarding the discography, I wanted to understand the discography better for my own purposes for myself but also to update Wikipedia and Allmusic. Allmusic's is good, but has some mistakes. Wikipedia's is bad. His bio is not very flattering and has inaccuracies on both, but I don't think I'm the most qualified person to revise that and I was going to appeal to either you or Peter to either edit that or offer to do so if you provided the content. I found some good discography info here too, obviously, but I'm going down a level and am happy to work together. I'm so moved by his playing and my one encouter with him and I just would like public record (as well as my private library) to more accurately refect what he has done and is doing.

Thanks for the story Bertrand. My theory wasn't that well founded. When I was assembling my Butch Warren Discography I came across referrence on line saw "Butch's Blues" and wondered literally from the title if he had written it. I've downloaded is listened it and I recognize the motive from Blue Spring Shuffle which appeared on Quiet Kenny the year before, so coupled with the liner notes, no, but some great playing. I was in DC in October and saw Butch play at Columbia Station, shook his hand and spoke with him briefly. Thrill of a life time. The man has tone and time and phrasing in his hands that is uniquely his. I honestly feel that if I had been walking down some random sidewalk and he had been playing inside I would have stopped and thought "is that Butch Warren?" Amazing. Beautiful. And he was quite gracious as were Peter and the other guys I met there. It was a great experience for me.

All right, then, thanks guys. That answers my questions asked. Some questions not asked, some questions implied (was this the 5th creditied Butch Warren composition on record, which is what I was really after), but not the obvious one that I neither asked nor implied. Is it a good record? Where one my list of "looking for" should I order it? Thanks again. I love posting some obscure question and waking up to a bunch of good info, I hope to return the favor some day. This is actually not the only problem I've found on All Music in the course of this research. I'll save them up and then write in to them.

I don't have my hands on this record yet and I have a couple of questions that could be answered with the liner notes. Could someone with access to them please raise their emoticon hand? Question #1 Who is credited as the composer on "Butch's Blues"? Question #2 Do they explain this session? All Music has it listed as a compilation, but with a single recording date and a single rhythm section. The recording date is also 12 years before his death, so I'm guessing that because it's on Xanadu, it was a lost in the vaults session released posthumously and their facts are just not that crisp. I'm looking for a copy for myself, but my thirst for knowledge can't wait. By the way, is there a method for submitting corrections to All Music? I've found some other things. I learn a lot from there, but I could fix a few things for them too. Thanks in advance for this. Troy

It actually wasn't at Tulas it was in Ballard and it was kind of last minute. I'll see if there's another chance before...well, before. And tell Luke to watch the growling.

No disrespect intended to Mr. LaFaro, but no, it wasn't an oversite. He is a great bassist and a very important one, but as admitted, I'm somewhat narrow in my jazz obsession. I like and admire Bill Evans Trio. Have some in my collection and it comes out for specific listening moods, but it's not my sweet spot. Evans, LaFaro and Motion were the start of something different in my mind. Something good, really talented cats, but something different. I still haven't gotten over Sonny Clark Trio, Wyton Kelly Trio, Ray Brown Trio.

I saw Hadley tonight with Thomas, Doug Miller and Byron Vanoy. He was great. He always sounds great, absolutely timeless. Mentioned the record coming out. I'll try to keep track of it and post when I hear. I'm on the Origin mailing list. I'm not sure who all he said was playing on it. Phil Sparks, I think he mentioned was the bassist. Good local hero.

Lived around. Been in Seattle, Washington since 2000 and pretty happy here. I am a sometime busily working jazz bassist with a day job that I don't care enough about to mention very often. Won't catch me mentioning politics or religion except in the very broadest senses of the terms. I generally tend to be interested in the world and care about people. I'll admit to being somewhat of a narrow listener. I really love hard bop. Mobley, Morgan, Henderson, Dorham, Golson and the gang. As a bassist, I have a connection to the playing of Butch Warren that I can't quite explain and I had a chance to meet him and see him play this year that was very moving to me. Ray Brown, Sam Jones, Oscar Pettiford, Chuck Isreals, Andy Simpkins are some of the many great players I love listening to. I don't think there will ever be a finer jazz musician than Clifford Brown on any instrument. Despite opinions to the contrary, I think Dexter Gordon was a beautiful artist. I can sit and listen to either of those gentlemen for a week and not blink. Mingus continues to inspire me. I also like vocal jazz more than most who are into bop. I do listen to other types of music, especially latin musics; Cuban, Bossa Nova, Tango, etc. I used to live in Miami and hear things that don't know how to categorize. I'd like to know how to play those things better some day. Occasionally I find something like Teddy Charles that expands my horizons and I'm happy about that too. Listening to jazz, playing jazz, knowing the history and musicians and fans is all a very important part of my life. I know a few people, but I don't claim to be anyone of any consequence. I've been happily married since 1993. My lovely wife works for NPR which carries with it some nice perks. I do a lot of reading, worthwhile literature and completely worthless stuff alike. That's a little more than you asked for, but I thought I should reintroduce myself.

I was telling my wife about this at lunch and she reminded me that she took this picture of the conversation that I was writing about this morning. It's a bit self indulgent, but it makes me happy to remember that day. I think it made him happy to be talking about it. He was pounding those chords out, talking about the session. Beautiful guy. Maybe it will make some of you smile too. I'm the one who doesn't look like George Cables.

That's how we spell it where I'm from. How about some cultural sensitivity? Besides, Grover rocks!

George Cables is a transcendent jazz pianist and a beautiful and giving spirit and I will think about him now and often. I won’t claim him as a friend, but have had an opportunity for the last several years to spend a little time around him at a jazz festival every July and he is just absolutely marvelous in every way. I’ll admit that I’ve been a little concerned about him the last few times and I knew something was wrong when he wasn’t there this year. I have two really defining experiences with him that I’ll share. The first musical, he was playing with John Clayton and Victor Lewis in this small venue that was packed at about 1.5x it’s fire code capacity and you could have heard a pin drop. People were standing in doorways and sitting on the stairs, just listening to piano trio. It was just one of those places and times where perfect music was happening. He was completely at ease musically and otherwise and the group was right there with him. The other was a different year, I think and we were standing on the grass outside of a venue and I had a chance to chat with him. (by the way, I’m nobody of any importance) I had talked to him before about how much I liked his playing and we had talked about Dexter. On this day I said that I always wondered about some of Dexter’s arrangements, how they came to be, did he score them and bring people into the studio or did they work them out there or what? Very casual comment, just to have something to talk to George Cables about for a few seconds, but he started talking about Manhattan Symphony and went over to a piano that was pushed up against the building, pulled it out and started talking to me about the intro they used on Body and Soul and how it was like ‘Trane, but not and how long Dex and been using it and what they talked about and how the session went. To me, those little glimpses into the music and the history are priceless. Maybe he knew that or maybe he just likes talking to people, but either way it was a great gift for me. Rest and get better Mr. Baggy Pants! You’re loved and respected.

Will do, I was actually pretty distracted and overextended in general last year. This year mucho mas tranquilo. Very focused on some intense listening, researching and documenting. We'll get to that. Thanks for welcoming me back. Oh, and Peter, Go F*** yourself.

I joined at Peter Johnson's invitation a year ago. Made nice with most of you, bumbled on a few of your toes, apologized and then we were all getting along fine. Then after the db crash, I lost my supergrover status and I just drifted away, but I've been doing some research lately and Peter urged me to come back. I've gotten some great help this week from both searching and posting. Thanks to all. I'm happy to be back. I'll watch my p's and q's.

Sorry if this is well worn, but I couldn't find it searching here or elsewhere to the level of detail I'm looking for. The "no words of less than 4 letters in your search string" was killing me on this one. Can someone help me understand the relationship between these sessions and records/cds as released? Horace Parlan's Back From the Gig Happy Frame of Mind and Booker Ervin's Back From the Gig Thanks in advance. Didn't see them on Jazzdisco, but that's a new resource to me and maybe I don't know how to use it. All Music was a little helpful, but it's still not quite clear to me and I'm a little obsessed.

That answered this and my next 35 research questions. Thank you.

I don't own this record, although I suspect that I will soon and it's a little confusing to me, but it sounds like there is some concern that the tracks may be labeled in that incorrect order, thus songs have the wrong names. Is that correct? With new originals, this would ordinarily be kind of unfortunate, but leading to my question, it could be worse than that in this case because my question was going to be: Can someone help me understand the personnel by track on this record? I this record mixed some sessions and rhythm sections, but without my hands on the liner notes (or I like to think my ears in front of some good speakers) I can't figure out which tracks belong to which rhythm sections. I'm doing some research and could use some help. can someone straighten me out, please?

Richard Viranque's team was caught with a very large stockpile of EPO, growth hormones, testosterone and amphetamines during the Tour. Viranque never claimed (couldn't) that he wasn't doped, he only claimed that he didn't know he had been doped. Testimony to the contrary claimed that he was integral to the operation. He later admitted it. Lance was tested every racing day of his cycling career and never had a finding. No drugs were ever found with him or his team. I don't know how you can compare the two. When I said that "it's different" what I was referring to is; cyclist doping and jazz musicians taking junk. It's sad when jazz musicians (or anyone) destroys themselves with drugs. It's fraud and cheating with competitive atheletes do it to win a race. I'm 100% opposed to it. When Tyler Hamilton failed his tests, I didn't defend him. When there is credible evidence that Lance Armstrong cheated, I'll not defend him either. Until then, I think it's in very poor taste to continue to accuse him. And please don't draw parallels to Viranque until we've got some similar findings.

It's different. Blood doping in cycling is cheating and makes a fraud of the sport. It is rampant in cycling and should be treated with scorn. Jazz musicians getting messed up on junk is self destructive. If Lance cheated he deserves to lose the respect that he has earned by his amazing career and comeback from cancer. However, unless someone can prove that he did, I think the French should shut their fuckin' pie hole. There is no way for him to prove that he didn't do something. He deserves the respect of anyone who cares about cycling or admires athletes until someone is able and willing to produce evidence. Preferrably not a tabloid news rag or a nation with a rich history of doped cycling champs...but not so many of note lately. By the way, I actually love France and the French. I used to go frequently. My conversational French used to be decent. I haven't turned on them. I'm just aggrevated with this story.

You know I have private and ulimate evidence that he is clean. Therefore he is obviously clean until you can refute this evidence that I am not at liberty to disclose. How does that sit with you from the other side of the table?