Jazz Messengers in Paris, 1959

[Dan Gould]

First of all, let me make it clear that I've already consulted Mike Fitzgerald's site! B-)

In fact, what motivates my post is this entry in Mike's Messenger's chronology:

- Theatre des Champs-Elysees, Paris, France (November 15, 1959) Paris Concert (RCA 430054); Are You Real (Moon 071) (two concerts) (private tape and video also exist)

I've got a video tape borrowed from a board member which, if accurate would logically be from this show, but I can't determine setlists because while I thought I had the RCA Paris Concert it looks like I don't, and AMG is no help either.

The setlist I have goes like this:

1) unknown title

2) Bouncing with Bud

3) Close Your eyes

4) Along Came Betty

5) Blues March

6) unknown title (though its killing me cuz I KNOW it but can't place it)

(fwiw, this almost seems like a different source as there is a much stronger background hum on this track)

I have the Moon CD so I know its a different show from that. So what I am asking is, what are the contents of the RCA album mentioned above, and if anyone has a setlist for the video that's already known to exist, if we can confirm that this is from the same engagement, that would be most helpful.

Thanks!

[Michael Fitzgerald]

The RCA album has:

Close Your Eyes

Goldie (aka What Know)

Ray's Idea

Lester Left Town

If I had a copy of what you've got I am sure I could identify the unknown tracks.

Mike

[Dan Gould]

Thanks Mike, I knew track 6 was a Hank Mobley composition, I just couldn't figure it out.

If your chronology is correct, and the video that you refer to in the chronology contains some portion of what was issued on the Moon and RCA recordings, then it looks as though there's more video out there than previously known, because these tunes aren't matching up exactly.

I just compared "Blues March" from the Moon issue and from the audio transfer I've done from the video, and its definitely the same, from the moment the crowd roars as the horns come in. The fact that the next track, "What Know", was issued on the RCA record and as I mentioned, sounds like a different source makes me wonder if those first four tracks haven't seen the light of day.

Or else, Mike's reference to known video didn't mean what I took it to mean, that the video matches the audio that's seen issue.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Do you think all this (plus Bouncing With Bud and Along Came Betty, and one more unknown title?) is from the same date? The only Messengers Bouncing With Bud I know is the one where Bud sits in.

Date: November 15, 1959

Location: Théâtre des Champs-Elysées, Paris, France

Label: (television broadcast)

Art Blakey (ldr), Wayne Shorter (ts), Lee Morgan (t), Walter Davis, Jr. (p), Jymie Merritt (b), Art Blakey (d)

a. 01 Close Your Eyes (Bernice Petkere)

RCA LP 12": 430054 - Paris Concert

b. 02 What Know [aka Goldie] (Lee Morgan)

RCA LP 12": 430054 - Paris Concert

c. 03 Ray's Idea (Dizzy Gillespie, Walter 'Gil' Fuller)

RCA LP 12": 430054 - Paris Concert

d. 04 Lester Left Town (Wayne Shorter)

RCA LP 12": 430054 - Paris Concert

e. Blues March - 08:56 (Benny Golson)

Moon CD: MCD 071-2 - Are You Real (1995)

f. Are You Real - 10:31 (Benny Golson)

Moon CD: MCD 071-2 - Are You Real (1995)

g. A Night In Tunisia - 08:53 (Dizzy Gillespie, Frank Paparelli, Jon Hendricks)

Moon CD: MCD 071-2 - Are You Real (1995)

Mike

[Dan Gould]

Do you think all this (plus Bouncing With Bud and Along Came Betty, and one more unknown title?) is from the same date? The only Messengers Bouncing With Bud I know is the one where Bud sits in.

Well, the first five tunes I listed all look to be from the same concert (there are no breaks in the recording), and have similar sound quality. The last tune, What Know, seems to be an add-on to the tape, as there's a break between the last two songs (it appears that "Blues March" was the last tune played).

As far as Bouncing With Bud goes, I hate to admit it, but I am going by the setlist provided, and I can't find another example in the CD stacks to compare it to. On the other hand, Marty's got a pretty good ear for tunes so if he wrote it up that way, its usually right, or else the setlist was given to him by whoever he got the video from in the first place.

Wish I had that instant recall you musicians have for tunes!

[brownie]

Could it be that some of the tunes are from the other concert with Blakey's Jazz Messengers at the Theatre des Champs-Elysees (the December 18, 1959 concert which was issued on the Fontana 'Paris Jam Session' album)?

There is a 'Bouncing With Bud' on that Fontana album. With Bud Powell and Barney Wilen on alto sax added to the Messengers...

[Dan Gould]

No, its all Wayne and Lee and Walter Bishop the whole way.

[brownie]

Then it is the November 15 concert with Walter Davis (not Bishop).

This is the track list from the November 15, 1959 concert Au Theatre des Champs-Elysees (edited from Claude Schlouch's Lee Morgan discography, a superb job!):

Théâtre des Champs-Elysées, Paris, France, November 15, 1959 (2 concerts: 8:30pm & 10:30pm)

1st concert-1st part:

Unknown title a unissued

Goldie (What know)   10:17 b RCA(F)430054,76481

Bouncing with Bud c -

Blues march  8:44 d Moon Records(It)MCD071-2

1st concert-2nd part:

announcement by Art Blakey

& Lee Morgan 0:24 e Jazz Band(E)EBCD-2128-2

No problem  13:14 f -

Ray’s idea  4:55 g -

Moanin’ h -

A night in Tunisia 1 8:46 i -

2nd concert (2 parts):

A night in Tunisia j -

Along came Betty  8:04 k -

Are you real  10:23 l -

Close your eyes  12:15 m -

Lester left town 9:54 n -

The midget o -

Suggest PM Schlouch for full details. His discography mentions the video.

[Dan Gould]

Walter Davis, D'OH!

Brownie, can you point me toward Claude's discography?

[brownie]

Dan, PM sent!

[bertrand]

I'm having trouble following this thread. What Hank Mobley composition is mentioned between Mike's post at 12:40 and Dan's post at 1:01? Mike mentions four tracks:

Close Your Eyes

Goldie

Ray's Idea

Lester Left Town.

None of these are by Mobley. Are you thinking of 'Goldie'? This is by Lee Morgan.

I have a French RCA CD with the four tracks above. Walter Davis' solos are blatantly cut off on some of the tunes. They must be complete on the tape. This is screaming for a proper expanded reissue. RCA? Forget it.

If you're having trouble identifying 'Bouncing With Bud', I always think of it as 'that tune that sounds like the theme to the Dick Van Dyke Show'.

Bertrand.

Edited April 10, 2005 by bertrand

[Dan Gould]

My mistake on "What Know," I always thought it was a Mobley composition, and my fast look at the Messenger's Mosaic CD picked up the composition credit for the song above it.

As for the Dick Van Dyke show, OK, remind me how that went?

[Dan Gould]

Then it is the November 15 concert with Walter Davis (not Bishop).

This is the track list from the November 15, 1959 concert Au Theatre des Champs-Elysees (edited from Claude Schlouch's Lee Morgan discography, a superb job!):

Théâtre des Champs-Elysées, Paris, France, November 15, 1959 (2 concerts: 8:30pm & 10:30pm)

1st concert-1st part:

Unknown title a unissued

Goldie (What know)   10:17 b RCA(F)430054,76481

Bouncing with Bud c -

Blues march  8:44 d Moon Records(It)MCD071-2

1st concert-2nd part:

announcement by Art Blakey

& Lee Morgan 0:24 e Jazz Band(E)EBCD-2128-2

No problem  13:14 f -

Ray’s idea  4:55 g -

Moanin’ h -

A night in Tunisia 1 8:46 i -

2nd concert (2 parts):

A night in Tunisia j -

Along came Betty  8:04 k -

Are you real  10:23 l -

Close your eyes  12:15 m -

Lester left town 9:54 n -

The midget o -

Suggest PM Schlouch for full details. His discography mentions the video.

Getting back to this, it occured to me that the unknown title I mention might be "Ray's Idea" but the track times do not match. Is Ray's Idea usually a feature for Blakey? This one is, with the band coming in only in the last minute or so of the 3:25 track.

I guess we could assume this is the unknown track Brownie lists from Claude's discography, but he lists it as unissued and without a track length, so it leaves me wondering whether this is a totally different tune?

And it gets more curious because now I've realized that Marty has different tapes of the same concert, but while the tracks seem to be the same, on one tape, "Close Your Eyes" is 12:45 instead of the 12:15 Brownie/Claude list (and another tape is 12:15). So perhaps one was edited?

[Jim R]

Hmm... you might check your collection for "Ray's Idea". It's on Miles" "Vol. 2" on Blue Note, from April 20th of 1953. I assume you have that... otherwise I can give you some other album titles.

[Dan Gould]

Thanks, Jim. Definitely not it. Must be the unissued tune. Since its obviously on one of the videos, maybe I should let Claude know that the unknown tune is 3:25, and maybe I should take Mike up on his offer to ID the tune.