Guest akanalog Posted April 12, 2005 Report Share Posted April 12, 2005 hello. i seem to have found a decent selection of interesting british jazz on amazon uk. i am curious which early john surman's are worth purchasing. i see there is a self titled "john surman" first album and then "how many clouds can you see?" and "the dawn sessions". i think "tales from the algonquin" is the best, right? but that isn't here. i am interested in the session with karl berger and i think that is on here somewhere... and how about frank ricotti's "our point of view". looks good. worth owning? and how are mike westbrook's "marching songs" and "release". i am a big fan of "love songs" and "metropolis" but i fear "marching songs" is more out and "release" is more standard big band fare. oh and how about john taylor's "pause and think again". also looks interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GA Russell Posted April 13, 2005 Report Share Posted April 13, 2005 AK, I have Marching Songs, and it is not out. It was a double album, and some of it is a little boring to me. I like it, but like Love Songs much more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidewinder Posted April 13, 2005 Report Share Posted April 13, 2005 (edited) Of the Surman's, the 'Algonquin' is a tremendous big-band date arranged by John Warren. One of Surman's best. 'How Many Clouds' is also good, a small group recording for Deram. The 'John Surman' (also on Deram) is a bit different. One side straight jazz, the other side strongly influenced by West Indian music. Certainly well worth having. The Frank Ricotti (originally put out by UK CBS Realm) is also a good one. Influenced by Gary Burton but with some UK prog rock and 60s jazz influences in there too. Ricotti is a fine, under-rated player. Check out also the 'Chris Spedding' thread. I also have vinyls of the two 'Marching Songs' and the 'Love Songs' by Westbrook and would give them a healthy thumbs up, if you are into Westbrook. 'Love Songs' in particular is a grower. Get hold of that recent Jap CD issue from the B's if its still on there.. Edited April 13, 2005 by sidewinder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fent99 Posted April 13, 2005 Report Share Posted April 13, 2005 John Taylor's Pause and Think Again is pretty good too and includes Kenny Wheeler (a fave of mine...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted April 13, 2005 Report Share Posted April 13, 2005 AK, The one with Berger is a cooperative group with John McLaughlin, and it's called Where Fortune Smiles. It should be included, at least in part, on the Dawn Sessions CD. How Many Clouds is an amazing record; the first half is mostly large ensemble, and the song "Galata Bridge" has to be heard to be believed. I don't have Algonquin, but I'd like to. It was reissued on CD a few years back, and I know the first two are OOP so you'd better be quick! Enjoy, CT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest akanalog Posted April 13, 2005 Report Share Posted April 13, 2005 ok so it looks like we have a go on the two surmans (s/t and the clouds one) and a yes on the john taylor and a yes on the ricotti and i am going to pass on westbrooks "release" and "marching songs" since i have a feelings i won't enjoy them as much as "love songs" or "metropolis". and i will throw in dudu pukwana's "in the townships" as i have been looking for that too. ok. well i guess amazon.uk isn't as cheap as i thought. i didn't realize the exchange rate sucked so bad. ok so here is another british jazz question-why the hell does john marshall get a solo feature on every damn album he is on? i mean elvin jones and tony william don't get a track all to themselves every time out. were the british so pumped to have a drummer they thought could get down they needed to show him off at every opportunity? live and studio stuff-nuclues or soft machine or even mike gibbs-there is always a marshall track. blessedly not on his work with eberhard weber though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest akanalog Posted April 13, 2005 Report Share Posted April 13, 2005 also i think the westbrook "citadel/room 415" looks like one to get. but i guess it is not around on CD. i am a big dave mcrae fan and it looks like he does most of the e-piano work on this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidewinder Posted April 13, 2005 Report Share Posted April 13, 2005 (edited) 'Citadel/Room 415' is indeed one to get, if you can find the vinyl. As is Metropolis also on RCA. There was a twofer UK LP issue of these from 1979 that is worth looking out for. There is a recent CD issue of 'Metropolis' but there was concern about the sound quality (not a problem on the original vinyl issue). Not sure whether or not 'Citadel' has come out on CD. If not, it should be. Is the Dave MacRae on these sessions (and on countless others from the 70s, especially on UK jazz radio broadcasts) the same Dave MacRae who was on the Don Ellis albums for Pacific Jazz? I believe he is a New Zealander.. Edited April 13, 2005 by sidewinder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest akanalog Posted April 13, 2005 Report Share Posted April 13, 2005 i dont know don ellis albums too well, but the mcrae i am talking about is a new zealander. he was also in pacific eardrum-a band i would like to know more about. is that dave mcrae also on some emil richards albums? why do i think that? no. that is dave mcKAY. is this the dude you think of? i think you mean the mckay guy. or am i remembering wrong? this is all off the top of my head. mcrae is especially good on ian carr's "belladonna". well i guess maybe gordon beck does more than i know on this album, but i will give mcrae the credit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidewinder Posted April 13, 2005 Report Share Posted April 13, 2005 Yes, this Dave MacRae (I think that's the right spelling) is from New Zealand and is/was leader of the band 'Pacific Eardrum'. I recall hearing several broadcasts by this band on 'BBC Jazz Club', Sunday nights on Radio 2 back in the 1970s. Covered much of the same style as 'Nucleus', I recall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest akanalog Posted April 13, 2005 Report Share Posted April 13, 2005 oh. you are right. wow. i should start using notes. but was the don ellis guy mcKAY? am i right about that or did i make it up? i am saying this without ever listening to any don ellis-just from guessing from some emil richards albums i have. and i haven't listened to those for a long time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest akanalog Posted April 13, 2005 Report Share Posted April 13, 2005 oh wait- also how is hugh hopper's "hopper-tunity box"? good? great? decent? i like some soft machine stuff-not all of it. not the biggest elton dean fan. i am listening to soft machine's "virtually" right now actually and coincidentally hopper is doing a big fuzzy solo. sounds like dave holland in 1970 miles, but actually i like hopper more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Lark Ascending Posted April 13, 2005 Report Share Posted April 13, 2005 (edited) The reissue of 'Metropolis' on BGO was faulty but this was corrected last year (you can send back duff copies and they'll replace). Citadel is well deserving of reissue - one of my favourite Westbrooks. I believe McRae returned to NZ in the 70s or 80s. I agree that he is a very distinctive voice - I love his contributions to Matching Mole's 'Little Red Record'. I'm not too keen on the calypso side of 'John Surman' - sounds a bit 'Light Programme' to my ears. Can't say I've noticed Marshall getting more solo space than most drummers of the 60s/70s...you should have attended a Collosseum II concert if you wanted drum solos!!!! I do know he remains a marvellous drummer - I've seen him twice in recent years with Surman and both times he's contributed to stellar band performances. I don't even remember if he took solos...I expect so. It wasn't what stuck in the mind. Edited April 13, 2005 by Bev Stapleton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidewinder Posted April 13, 2005 Report Share Posted April 13, 2005 but was the don ellis guy mcKAY? am i right about that or did i make it up? Yes, I think it was Dave McKay. My mistake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidewinder Posted April 13, 2005 Report Share Posted April 13, 2005 (edited) I agree with the comments about John Marshall. Very much a group player. His work was a standout at the recent Surman gig at the Barbican Conservatory. I believe you were there as well, Bev.. Just playing the vinyl of 'Citadel', by the way. It's a beauty.. Edited April 13, 2005 by sidewinder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Lark Ascending Posted April 13, 2005 Report Share Posted April 13, 2005 Yes, that was one of my two recent spottings. Great afternoon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidewinder Posted April 13, 2005 Report Share Posted April 13, 2005 Indeed ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest akanalog Posted April 13, 2005 Report Share Posted April 13, 2005 i am not dogging marshall's skills-just most older CDs i see with him have a solo drum track. not a drum solo in a song. a track which is just a drum solo. perhaps this is done so it can be skipped more easily but it still seems weird to me. this does not seem to be the case on ECM albums he appears on but let us be serious-i don't think eicher would let that go down anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzscot Posted April 14, 2005 Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 Just to throw in some more information about Dave McRae, in the 80's London Jazz scene he had a group that featured his wife Joy Yates on vocals, playing in Pubs in and around London. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted April 14, 2005 Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 Marshall is good on that Graham Collier "Down Another Road" LP (Fontana, reissued on CD)... and yes, he does get a track pretty much to himself. Have you checked out Collier's music yet, AK? The first three slay me, the others mildly jab. If you're not hip on Elton Dean, then I would avoid "Hoppertunity Box" and "Monster Band" like the plague, as well as much Soft Machine from the early 70s. But then, avoiding that stuff takes a big chunk out of one's exposure to the British jazz/rock cross-pollination, which is pretty endemic to all the stuff you're wanting to hear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest akanalog Posted April 14, 2005 Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 cliff, i don't dislike dean. just not the biggest fan. i don't avoid him by any means. soft machine "virtually" "noisette" and "six" are all great albums in my book. "live in paris" didn't do it for me though. i think that wasn't the right mix of players. and i have heard collier's albums "down a different road" (OK), "darius" (not sure about this one yet-jurek loves it) and "mosaics" (i like this one a lot). i am thinking about checking out "portraits" next. what are the three you like? "songs for my father" and "dark blue center" and "down a different road"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzscot Posted April 14, 2005 Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 Why not try this one when it comes out in May on the Cuneiformrecords Label "WORKPOINTS" 2CDs Called "A pioneer...a true British jazz original." by The Times, "An inventive and underrated jazz figure" by Jazziz and "Britain's most original jazz talent." by The Financial Times, Graham Collier is one of the best known British jazz composers, and over a 40 year career, his list of compositions and comissions has grown to encompass ensembles around the world. He is well known as an aurthor and educator, having written seven books on jazz. He was born in Tynemouth, England in 1937. He won a Downbeat scholarship to Berkless School of Music, Boston, studying with Herb Pomeroy and becoming its first British graduate in 1963. Returning to Britain, he formed the first of many line-ups known as Graham Collier Music, which over the years has featured almost every British jazz musician of note. Workpoints consists of two previously unreleased concerts from 'a golden age of British jazz': one from 1968 and one from 1975. The music is composed with lots of room for contributions from the individual players, and in that regard, might be comparable to the work of one of Graham's heroes, Charles Mingus. The album features a huge number of well known jazz musicians, such as: Harry Beckett, Mike Gibbs, Frank Ricotti, Henry Lowther, John Marshall, John Surman, Art Themen, Kenny Wheeler and others. Included in the booklet are archival photos, notes and comments from Graham. AVAILABLE MAY 10TH, 2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest akanalog Posted April 14, 2005 Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 yes i will try the new one coming out as well as the surman coming out with it. both sound great! i am listening to "darius" right now and while at first i found it sort of aimless-the playing is solid. it's still a little middle of the road and i don't know how jurek calls it a classic or whatever, but nice playing and nice grooves. this john webb guy can play the drums. dig him on harry beckett's "flare up" too. loose style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted April 14, 2005 Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 what are the three you like? "songs for my father" and "dark blue center" and "down a different road"? Yes, those ones. He sort of gets aimless after Mosaics, to my ears at least. Flare Up is good, but man, Beckett is amazing on Down Another Road in particular. Do you like the Brotherhood of Breath? Essential listening, IMO. Great stuff on Cuneiform, Ogun and RCA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest akanalog Posted April 14, 2005 Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 brotherhood of breath is good. never really grabbed me though. not my favorite format. i just ordered a dudu pukwana disc and i recently got a trio disc with feza and dyani (plus okay temiz) which is pretty good. and i might explore some mike osborne which i might not like, but the musicians interest me in taking a listen. so you don't think it is worth checking out collier albums like "midnight blue" and "new conditions" and "portraits"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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