Repetition

[Guest]

Hello everyone,

My name is Brana and I just joined this forum on recommendation by Bertrand Uberall. I am a musicologist, ethnomusicologist, and jazz drummer, originally from former Yugoslavia, currently in VA.

I have a question regarding one specific strategy in jazz that has been variously attributed to Miles Davis and Thelonious Monk.

Would anyone happen to know who was the one who came up with the following idea:

while playing, you make a mistake (unintentionally); you then repeat that mistake, once or several times and start playing with it, and then it turns into an intentional gesture. In other words, through repetition, a mistake becomes a part of the piece.

If anyone knows where could I find a written reference to this I'd greatly appreciate it!

Thanks,

Brana

[JSngry]

I can't prove it, but I'd guess that it's as old a manuever as improvisation itself.

[JSngry]

And oh yeah - welcome to the board!

[Michael Fitzgerald]

This subject is covered in Paul Berliner's book Thinking In Jazz - check the index under "repetition". I'll have to see if there is any attribution, but it's really something that goes back before jazz.

Mike

Even better, check under "Improvisation; mistakes and" esp. pp. 209-16.

Apologies if this is already well-known to you.

Edited August 21, 2005 by Michael Fitzgerald

[Christiern]

In the post-WWII years, when Bunk and company invaded Europe and pale trad bands proliferated like horse radish, young men with accents and shiny Selmers embraced the involuntary clinkers of their resurrected idols.

Hey, they even practiced blowing the wrong notes, but never their own.

I remember it well.

[bertrand]

Chris,

Was Wynton Marsalis there too

Thanks to everyone for their input so far. I'm very happy to see that Brana joined the board; we've been good friends for over 10 years now. I'll throw in a couple of comments since I know Brana won't be able to check the board today.

Mike,

We suspected that Berliner would cover this topic, but Brana's copy is still in storage since she just moved to Virginia!

Brana,

It just occurred to me - until you get your stuff unpacked, the University Library hopefully has a copy of Berliner's book. I can't believe I didn't think about that earlier.

Bertrand.

Edited August 21, 2005 by bertrand

[Guy Berger]

Brana,

Welcome to the board!

Guy

[Nate Dorward]

There's a quote in a book I read ages ago, Zen and the Art of the Macintosh, from Ornette Coleman: "Jazz is just riffing on your mistakes". No citation there, so I don't know if this is an accurate quote (the only well-documented qt from Ornette I've seen on the topic is rather different, something like "I realized that I was onto something when I realized that in playing free you could make mistakes.")

[Guest]

Hi everyone and hi Bertrand,

Thanks a lot for all the replies, and esp. to Michael!

Looking forward to communicating with all of you! Bertrand had all the best to say about this forum.

Till next time,

Brana

[Michael Fitzgerald]

BTW, I just today learned that Paul Berliner is about to join the faculty of Duke University.

Mike

[7/4]

I can't prove it, but I'd guess that it's as old a manuever as improvisation itself.

←

That's what I was thinking, I remember hearing it when I was a kid and it has served me well for many years.

Maybe I read it in Guitar Player or later in DownBeat?

...and welcome to the board!