Wes Montgomery on Riverside

[Michael Fitzgerald]

I know there are some serious Wes freaks here, so please help out if you've already sorted through this.

My LP copy of "Portrait of Wes" has a tune titled "Movin' Along" (6:16). I *know* that this was a mistitling and the Riverside boxed set calls the tune "Blues Riff" - BUT the two versions listed in the boxed set as "Blues Riff" are tk 7 - alt. (4:13) and tk 8 - alt. (8:10).

So - where is Blues Riff master take (6:16)??? Does it only exist on the Portrait of Wes album?

Mike

[bertrand]

I don't have this set, but just a thought - could the master take have in fact been an amalgam of the two alternates? Keepnews does this a lot. Of course, you would hope the notes would mention this.

I had a similar problem with the Monk Riverside box. There is a 3:09 version of 'Epistrophy' on Monk With Coltrane (which is actually from the Monk's Music sessions), but the box has a 1:46 fragment and a 10+ minute take - nothing in the 3:00 minute range. I know you must have resolved this for your Gryce book - was the 3:09 an excerpt from the long take?

Bertrand.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Don't think so - I just did a little A-B on these and the Portrait of Wes take is faster than either of the other two in the boxed set and they all have different guitar solos.

More for the Fantasy orphan CD, I guess.

Mike

[bertrand]

At this point, it's the Fantasy Orphan Box!

Bertrand.

[mikeweil]

The problem is, Orrin Keepnews was plagued by his bad conscience for decades: After Wes' next-to-last session for Riverside he had test pressings made of the takes selected with Wes' agreement, but after listening Wes wanted to re-do some tunes - thus the November session. But before the album was issued Riverside went out of business and the new owners released the LP as assembled on the test pressing.

Here's what I found after meticulous comparisons of takes while reseaerching Melvin Rhyne's recordings (I'm sorry that some of the formatting is fouled up - but I'm a little feverish - some day I will type all of this into BRIAN ......)

- Portrait Of Wes / Guitar On The Go -: Melvin Rhyne (organ) Wes Montgomery (guitar) George Brown (drums)

Plaza Sound Studios, New York, October 10, 1963

Moanin' (take 7, edited) [5:37]  Riverside 492, OJCCD-144-2

Moanin' (take 7, complete) [6:16]            Milestone M-47057, Riverside 12RCD-4408-2

Dreamsville [3:48]    Riverside 494, OJCCD-489-2, Milestone M-47030, -

Freddie Freeloader [5:09]   Riverside 492, OJCCD-144-2, Milestone M-47057, -

Lolita [6:32]        - -

Blues Riff [6:16]       - -

Dangerous [6:59]      - -

Yesterday's Child [4:11]     - -   , Milestone M-47030

Movin' Along [7:26]    Milestone MCD-9261-2     -

Mi Cosa (solo guitar) [3:35]   OJCCD-489-2      -

Mi Cosa listed as unidentified solo guitar on OJCCD-489-2, which was its first issue. All titles on Riverside 494 (mono) also on Riverside 9494 (stereo), OJC-489.

All titles on Riverside 492 (mono) also on Riverside 9492 (stereo), OJC-144, Riverside (J) SMJ 6202.

Moanin' (take 10) mistitled take 7 on OJCCD-144-2 and consequently dated October 10, 1963, but aural comparison identifies the take on OJCCD-144-2 clearly as take 10 from the November 27, 1963 session. The edited version of take 7 is simply titled Moanin' on all issues. The liner notes on Milestone M-47057 do not state that Moanin' (take7) is the re-edited longer version of the previously issued take, but simply say "These  takes of Moanin' and Blues Riff are unissued".

Comment: The versions of Lolita, Blues Riff, Dangerous and Yesterday's Child from this session were rejected by Montgomery and producer Orrin Keepnews after listening to test pressings and re-recorded at the next session, but issued on Riverside 492 after the label's ownership changed in 1964 (the new label owners issued the LP as compiled on the test pressing). These takes are not included in the box set of Montgomery's complete Riverside recordings, only on reissues of the original Riverside LP, and are not listed in the set's discography (see Orrin Keepnew's notes in the box set for details). His bad conscience after the fact that these versions had been released without Montgomery's consent must have plagued him considerably, but as he mentions in his session notes, he never found the time or opportunity to completely remedy this before the box set. A first incomplete attempt was the preparation of the Milestone twofer M-47057, were he left off the rejected takes of Lolita, Blues Riff and Dangerous, but without explanation - Yesterday's Child had already been reissued on Milestone M-47030, a twofer combining the Riverside strings album with organ trio ballads selected from all five Riverside organ trio sessions.

I think the four rejected but nevertheless issued takes should at least have been listed in the box set discography with a note explaining the circumstances of their release, especially when considering Montgomery's sometimes over-critical attitude towards his own solos. Fans and collectors have lived with and loved these takes for many years and some certainly would miss them if they were no longer available. They now belong into the canon of classic Wes Montgomery (and Melvin Rhyne) recordings; I would have preferred  to see them reissued in the box set. To own a complete set of Wes Montgomery's Riverside sessions, one has to buy the box set and OJCCD-144-2.

To own all of Montgomery's Riverside and Fantasy recordings, one has to buy either the box set and OJCCD-144-2 and Milestone MCD-47076-2 Groove Brothers (a reissue of the two Montgomery Brothers Fantasy LP's) and MCD-9298-2 Dangerous (which includes three previously unissued alternate takes from these sessions); or all the Original Jazz Classics reissues of individual LP's and four Milestone CD's with various tracks first issued in the box set. If one wants to build a Montgomery organ trio collection based on the single CD reissues, one has to buy the Original Jazz Classics reissues of the four original LP issues (OJCCD-034-2, OJCCD-144-2, OJCCD-261-2, OJCCD-489-2) and Milestone MCD-9261-2 and MCD-9298-2. In chosing one of the latter two alternatives, one gets only the edited take of Moanin‘, and Blues Riff (take 8) from the November 27, 1963 session is still missing; both are currently available only in the box set, although there would have been enough playing time left to include them on MCD-9261-2, MCD-9268-2, or on any of the Original Jazz Classics CDs. Wes' Riverside recordings are one more opportunity to discuss the validity of a reissue concept worshipping the original 12" LP issues in an almost fetishistic manner. There will come a time when all jazz lovers who still knew these LP's have died and jazz buyers will shake their heads at the scattered fashion in which these recordings were issued.

- Guitar On The Go / Dangerous -: Melvin Rhyne (organ) Wes Montgomery (guitar) George Brown (drums)

Plaza Sound Studios, New York, November 27, 1963

For All We Know [4:27]    Riverside 494, OJCCD-489-2, Milestone M-47030

The Way You Look Tonight (take 1) [9:06]      -  -

The Way You Look Tonight (take 2) [5:48]   -

Yesterday's Child [4:20]    Milestone MCD-9298-2

Geno [2:52]      Riverside 494, OJCCD-489-2

Dangerous [8:09]    Milestone MCD-9298-2

Lolita [5:13]        -

Blues Riff (take 7) [4:13]    Milestone M-47057, MCD-9298-2

Blues Riff (take 8) [8:10]     -

Moanin' (take 10) [4:34]     -     , OJCCD-144-2

Complete session on Riverside 12RCD-4408-2.

Moanin' (take 10) mistitled take 7 on OJCCD-144-2 and consequently dated October 10, 1963, but aural comparison identifies the bonus track on OJCCD-144-2 clearly as take 10 from the November 27, 1963 session. The edited version of take 7 is simply titled Moanin' on all issues. The liner notes on Milestone M-47057 do not state that Moanin' (take7) is the re-edited longer version of the previously issued take, but simply say "These  takes of Moanin' and Blues Riff are unissued".

Comment: The takes of Yesterday's Cild, Dangerous, Lolita and Blues Riff recorded at this session were the ones preferred by Montgomery and Keepnews to the ones issued on Riverside 492 and equivalents. Riverside 494 was prepared for release without consulting Keepnews or Montgomery and included one track each from Montgomery's previous organ trio sessions. See my note to the previous session for a more elaborate comment.

p.s.

added timings

Edited September 8, 2005 by mikeweil

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Boy - that little question turned up a load. I'll now try to digest all this.

BTW, Mike - I have entered the details of the Complete Riverside boxed set in BRIAN already (thus my question) and will be glad to export the info for you whenever you're ready.

Mike

[mikeweil]

Thanks for the kind offer - the chicken pox struck me (at 51!) and I thought I'd have some time to get used to BRIAN, but a friend offered me to lend his disc recorder to transfer some LPs, so .....

plus I have headaches part of the time so my mind is not quite working the way it should.

On a base note, I find it ridiculous that Keepnews left off four well known takes from the box set for the plain reason he messed up decades ago! And it wasn't even his fault, at least not his alone - or was it? He should have listed them in the set discography, at least. Trying to re-write history .... I, for one, like the groove on the earlier version of Lolita much better - although I can see Wes preferred a more subtle approach. But I think this was one more occasion where he was over-critical with himself.

Edited September 8, 2005 by mikeweil

[mikeweil]

After comparing takes from the box set and my OJC CD of Portrait:

The 6:16 take mistitled Movin' Along on the LP is the one recorded at the October session left off the box set.

That's why I kept my single CD of Portrait - everything else but these four takes is on the box set.

[mikeweil]

BTW - with that disc recorder I will finally make my own custom CDs of these sessions in recording order with all takes included - thanks for reminding me of this mess!