Latest RVGs are COPY CONTROLLED

[David Ayers]

Well maybe there has been copmment on this but I can't find it. I just saw these in the local shop and they are COPY CONTROLLED.

This is the Rollins, Silver etc batch.

I am pretty shocked - is this only the European edition? Are the US issues flagged as copy controlled? Are they copy controlled but not so indicated? Did I miss a thread on this??

[vibes]

The US issues are definitely not copy-protected. I have made MP3's from the Rollins, Blakey, Silver and Gordon.

[Claude]

I was very dissappointed too to hear that. It only seems to be on the european CDs.

Originally posted by nja

On the front where you can see through to the tray insert, previous RVG titles used to just say "The Rudy Van Gelder Edition", and on the new issues there's a large ugly COPY CONTROLLED logo in addition, with more information on the back and a bit of blurb on the inside imploring the purchaser not to make illegal copies.  The "compatible with" information is in five European languages (English, French, German, Spanish, Italian), the insert's printed in the EU, so it's possible that it's only the European version, but the copy control is definitely there.  If you put the discs into a PC, it loads an application which plays the tracks at 96 kbps.  Windows Media Player (XP, WMP9) can't see the audio data on the CD, nor can WinAmp, but (as I said earlier) Musicmatch Jukebox can.

http://forums.allaboutjazz.com/showthread....s=&postid=37667

Edited August 23, 2003 by Claude

[David Ayers]

The logo and other information is so disfiguring it made me feel like a criminal just to be handling them!

Still, at least they are part way to smashing the global trade in pirated RVGs.

What future now for organised crime?

[Claude]

Amazon.de indicates copyprotection on CDs, so it is possible to check which new releases are concerned. Most online stores don't give that information.

Dexter Gordon - Our man in Paris

------------------------------------------

Erscheinungsdatum: 5. September 2003

Label: Blue Note (EMI)

ASIN: B0000A5BSC

Format: Audio Audio CD (CD-Anzahl: 1)

Kopiergeschützt <-------- Copy protected

----------------------------------------------

Edited August 23, 2003 by Claude

[David Ayers]

It is interesting that they roll out this copy control on the euro RVGs but not the US ones. Maybe they think their US customers won't wear it but that Europeans will just roll over.

Personally I won't go near this stuff. US customers who at this moment are feeling smug should hope it doesn't come to them any time soon.

Claude is right, that this tends to destroy trust in mail order, since as of now no-one knows whether they have ordered a copy controlled disk until they see it. Mail order companies won't like it as they have to deal with all the returns.

Oh EMI, what CAN you be thinking...

Edited August 23, 2003 by David Ayers

[Free For All]

US customers who at this moment are feeling smug should hope it doesn't come to them any time soon.

I have been to the UK many times and always manage to find obscure titles that are nowhere to be found in the US, so I don't think we have any kind of a "leg up" on Europe. You also see many titles issued over there before we get them. I'm sure this problem or one similar to it will hit us over here eventually so I, for one, am not in the least "smug" about this issue. Cheers!

[Brad]

This doesn't seem to make much sense unless this is an experiment that they want to see how it will play in Europe first. On a more practical level, if you don't want to buy these, how about ordering from a cd universe or some place like that or will they just have it shipped from a European point of origin with the same problem?

[Use3D]

David Ayers said

Personally I won't go near this stuff. US customers who at this moment are feeling smug should hope it doesn't come to them any time soon.

And why not? The copy protection doesn't work at all. I was able to rip a controlled cd in mere minutes. Most of the time they simply spoof the TOC data which is the oldest trick in the book. Any modern CD ROM drive with half-decent software can bypass the bogus TOC and extract the data.

[Jazzmoose]

True, they don't protect at all, but some systems do affect the audio quality. So the consumer gets a crappier product, and the business doesn't get the protection it wants either. It's a "lose-lose" one...

[Claude]

Copyprotected CD are not new in Europe, in fact most of the topselling CDs are now protected. But it's the first time they do it with jazz CDs. Check the charts page on amazon.de for the "kopiergeschützt" in the description.

New copyright legislation has also been passed in Europe recently, which prohibits the cracking of copy protection.

'No more music CDs without copy protection,' claims BMG unit (The Register, June 2002)

If BMG is seen as experimenting on Europeans while leaving truculent Americans for another day, it might be subject to a certain amount of adverse publicity, and sales of the local market products might just collapse.

Edited August 24, 2003 by Claude

[A Lark Ascending]

I'm not totally up on this. Am I right that what copyright control does is stops you making more than one copy (i.e. the copy won't copy)?

I noticed this when making a compilation CDR. I tried to make a copy of the copy for a friend and some of the tracks would not copy. The problem was overcome by switching to analogue record. Can't say I noticed any quality difference.

Or is this copyright control something different?

[Claude]

No, copy protection prevents the audio CD from being played on a computer. The PC cannot read it, and also cannot copy it. It is not as clever as to allow one copy. Maybe you are confusing this with the digital copy protection that exists on Minidiscs.

So one can only make analog copies of such a CD: play it on CD player, record the music with the PC soundcard or a standalone CD recorder and make a CD-R of that. There is software that can circumvent copy protection, but it is illegal under the current EU copyright law. Copies for private use are still allowed, but they are made more difficult when a CD is copyprotected.

Some protected CDs (such as the new european RVGs) have compressed music files on a data section of the CD that can be read on the PC. So one can listen to the music, but at a non-hifi sound quality.

As a side effect (and this is what bothers music fans), some copy protection schemes affect sound quality, because they rely on data errors that can be corrected almost completely by standard CD player but not by a computer CD drive. Many protected CDs also create playback problems on DVD players or car CD players, because those devices often use the same type of disc drives as computers.

So basically, copy protected CDs are crippled products, sold at the same price. Even if one does not intend to make copies, they can create problems.

Edited August 24, 2003 by Claude

[Swinging Swede]

First of all, copyprotected discs aren’t CDs. They don’t adhere to the Red Book specification so they neither technically nor legally are CDs. Philips doesn’t allow the use of the Compact Disc logo on these discs. The record companies would love us to think that these discs are "CDs", but they aren’t, and it is important that we as customers don’t call them that. If they were CDs, they would be playable in computers and car stereos, since those are technically designed to play discs manufactured according to the Red Book standard.

I wasn’t intending to buy any of the new RVGs anyway, since I already had all of them in their old incarnation. Now I certainly won’t buy them. But I had intended to buy five of the upcoming October Connoisseurs, and three of the upcoming February/March RVGs. What to do now? If they are released on CD only in the U.S., I may have to order import copies from there. No European branch of EMI will get my money any longer. Is that what they wanted?

Especially when thinking of the Horace Silver Trio RVG it is laughable to read nja’s description of the blurb on the inside of the European RVGs ”imploring the purchaser not to make illegal copies”. Well, half of that disc already is in the public domain in Europe, and the other half will be in a few months! So what illegal copies are they possibly talking about?? Idiots.

This is such an idiotic move from EMI for several reasons. Customers may have to order the U.S. versions instead. Or they may not buy the releases at all because of the hassle. But another possibility is that Definitive (or similar) comes out with a CD version of the material. I have refrained from buying any Definitive product so far, but if they copy the content, and release a CD version of it, this may be an instance where I will have to buy it. Brilliant, EMI!

[A Lark Ascending]

No, copy protection prevents the audio CD from being played on a computer. The PC cannot read it, and also cannot copy it. It is not as clever as to allow one copy. Maybe you are confusing this with the digital copy protection that exists on Minidiscs.

No. I'm copying from a stand alone CD copier, not a computer.

Thanks, I think I understand the distinction now.

[Claude]

But I had intended to buy five of the upcoming October Connoisseurs, and three of the upcoming February/March RVGs. What to do now? If they are released on CD only in the U.S., I may have to order import copies from there.

I think that in the past, most (maybe all) Connoisseurs were only manufactured in the US. My Connoisseur CDs, ordered from european and US shops, are all "Made in USA".

Because the industry considers Europe (and mainly Germany) as test market for copyprotected CDs, I will also refrain from buying those discs.

Here is a list and a database of european copyprotected CDs:

French consumer magazine +Que choisir?

Heise CD-Register

As you can see from the french list, very few copyprotected jazz CDs were issued until now. While it seems logical (from the industry point of view) to protect top selling jazz albums such as new releases by Norah Jones, Diana Krall or Pat Metheny, it's ridiculous to do it with reissues such as Dizzy Gillespie "Have trumpet, will excite" or the new RVGs.

Edited August 24, 2003 by Claude

[Swinging Swede]

My 1999-2002 Connoisseurs say "Made in EU". Before that they all seem to have been made in the US.

[JohnS]

The Euro issue of Joe Lovano's "On This Day At The Vanguard is copy protected as is The Jazz Crusaders "Chile Con Soul". If I read the label correctly they are supposedly playable on a PC. A dialogue box pops up stating that "a number of files need updating on your PC". A footnote says Playback problems may be encountered on some equipment"

[Claude]

Yes, that's what is explained in the AAJ post. The PC plays the music from (rather low quality) compressed files, it does not play the audio CD part, which is supposed to be invisible to the PC.

It seems that all the latest european Blue Note releases are copyprotected. I found these titles on amazon.de (I stopped searching after a few pages):

- The Cover Art of Blue Note (great pop songs performed by great jazz vocalists)

- Dianne Reeves - A little Moonlight

- "The Essential" samplers (Hancock, Ellington/Armstrong, Rollins, Miles, etc)

- Jason Moran - Bandwagon

- Martial Solal - Ny-1/Live at the Village Vanguard

- Renee Rosnes With the Danish (...)

- Willy Bobo - Bobo's Beat

- Terence Blanchard - Bounce

- Jack Constanzo - Latin Fever

- Bobby Hutcherson - Montara

- Ron Caerter - The Golden Striker

So if the next Connoisseurs are manufactured in Europe too, there is not much hope of getting normal CDs.

Edited August 24, 2003 by Claude

[lukrion]

This blows. I have NO intention of copying these CDs, or any inprint CDs for anyone. And I hope Blue Note knows that I have dozens of people breaking down my door because they actually give a crap that Dexter Gordon (Who?) has a new reissue out. C'mon, besides us, how many people have droves of friends asking to copy their jazz collection. With Jazz sales down, I'd hope that Blue Note can figure out that most people just don't care about it as an art or entertainment. I'm sure most of you feel the same way and your not copying dozens of handout CDRs either. I feel this is just another example of a large corporation strongarming its potential customer base.

What I do want is to be able to play my music on any machine I have or will have. I would like to be "able" to make an exact backup of it, in case it does get scratched. I would like my music to be as clear and natural as possible. I would like to see more attempts in improving sound such as with superior formats. I'm supporting SACD, but if Swinging Swede is correct when he says that these regular CDs aren't even Redbook standard Cd's, I feel the industry is just moving backwards.

Its like I said, I'm not in the habit of burning in-print or obtainable titles for people and would rather not get copies of CDrs either. It would be nice if a company could get it right, and stop looking at its "consumers" as thieves.

[David Ayers]

I haven't bought a BN CD since the BNBB was closed - I just had a bad taste in my mouth. Seems that BN are making it easy for me to stay away.

Just to clarify, I have never copied a CD and don't even have the means. It is the audio degredation I object to. Compounded by the cynicism of foisting this sh*t off on Europeans but not on Americans who they know won't wear it.

So - a decision certain to alienate well heeled European collectors who formerly bulk bought their product. What goon at EMI came up with this nonsense?

More trouble for Mosaic too as their parent body's hostilities against once loyal customers go into another phase. If I use the word 'fuckwit' will it be censored?

Here is the page where these assholes give their 'technical' explanation: EMI tell their customers where to get off

Edited August 24, 2003 by David Ayers

[lukrion]

Thanks David for that link. Sound quality and marking are my main concerns too.

When I see that indication label, I'll just put the disc back on the shelf. As simple as that.

I don't think Europeans are alone. It is not a matter of if, but when.

EMI has gotten enough of my money, already. Speaking for myself, I buy too many Cd's. This will help me to stop cold turkey. And I understand that they are giving "alternatives" to play the CD on a PC, or if it doesn't play in the car, etc. Ya know what? We have enough stress in our lives without messing around trying to get a CD to play on a machine, and looking for one that will. I don't even feel like screwing around with software. I'm not playing games.

I suggested on the All About Jazz site, that listeners should send a letter stating their objection to Blue Note. Its worth the 37 cents IMO, and whatever it would cost from Europe. I say a letter rather than an e-mail or phone calls because it has a better chance of getting read and acted on.

If nothing happens, fugg'em.

[nmorin]

I do the majority of my CD listening at work on my PC -- if I can't listen to a new CD at work, or if the copy-protected sound quality is poor, I just won't (in nearly all cases) buy it. Period.

I do make copies of CDs; I don't make copies for others, but I put the music from across several CDs by an artist in chronological sequence, because that's how I enjoy listening to it (especially 50s Prestige CDs, which seem to often jump all over the place). And, more importantly, when I buy a box set, I immediately copy all the CDs and listen to the copies -- replacing a worn out or messed up Kind of Blue for $10 is different from having disc #9 in the Complete Billie Holiday on Columbia crap out. If I cannot do these things anymore, it will severely curtail my CD purchasing.

[mmilovan]

These things are amusing (this has been taken from suggested EMI link):

"Q:

Why does the disc not carry the Philips Compact Disc logo ?

A:

Because we have introduced a new standard to the Audio disc market that is not the same as the old Phillips standard, therefore we do not use their logo."

Edited August 25, 2003 by mmilovan

[JohnS]

For information and to update Claude's post Martial Solal's NY1 is NOT copy protected.