Sports and drugs

[Dan Gould]

I guess you can muscle it out once in a while, but I don't think it's that "easy" to do as you might think. As for the hand-eye thing, I can't say I've heard anything like that, but it might be true. That would explain it a lot better, for me at least.

Sure Aaron never hit 50, but when he played home run totals in the 30s and 40s were considered excellent. Today it seems you have to reach the fifty mark to be a so-called power hitter. Remember when Brady Anderson hit 50 in the leadoff spot for the Orioles; that was an aberration, IMO. Caused by drugs? Probably. I think his next highest total was something like 26. Now that's suspicious. At least guys like Bonds and McGuire were big home run guys before the "broke out". Bonds, it must said, hits for average too. He is a complete player and should enter the hall of fame.

Number one, I'm referring specifically to what Gabe Kapler told the Globe, which was exactly along the lines of "don't hit it on the sweet spot, but still hit it out" and he referred to minor league players who had "warning track power," juiced, and started hitting it out. So to me, its a no-brainer that bigger bulk means more margin for error when you're swinging for the fences.

And I think you're wrong about Bonds and McGuire. McGuire was a home run hitter right from the start. I think he set the rookie record, in fact. Bonds was not a home run hitter and in fact I don't think he'd hit more than 40 or so when he started assaulting records at such a shockingly advanced age.

Look, the irony is that he had numbers that justified induction long before he got so huge and started doing what he's done. He didn't need to juice. but I don't see how you can come to a conclusion otherwise.

Rat,

You're correlation is far from perfect:

Aaron was never a big man, and neither was Ted Williams, "the Splendid Splinter"

[Dr. Rat]

Rat,

You're correlation is far from perfect:

Aaron was never a big man, and neither was Ted Williams, "the Splendid Splinter"

Now statistical correlations rarely are perfect. I wouldn't make it any stronger than, on average, bigger people tend to hit more home runs, and if you took an average of all 200+ fast guys and ran it against an average of all sub 175s, you would find the 200+ guys hit significantly more home runs. Leading us to believe that weight is one causal factor in the propensity to hit what are known as "dingers."

[Noj]

I don't see any reason to not believe Bonds. He did the creatine thing while it was legal, and then his trainer gave him something he didn't know was illegal after the rules changed. I agree with Pryan that Bonds is a great player despite this controversy--and I'm a Dodger fan. Bonds doesn't hit home runs that should be warning track flyouts, he hits 500 foot no-doubters (when he isn't blistering a double in the gap or drawing walks since he's got such a good eye).

[7/4]

December 16, 2004

Jones's Suit Says Conte Defamed Her

By JERE LONGMAN, NYTimes

The former Olympic sprint champion Marion Jones filed a defamation suit yesterday against Victor Conte Jr., the founder of the Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative, charging that he had made false and malicious statements accusing her of using banned performance-enhancing drugs.

Jones is under investigation by the International Olympic Committee, which is examining a doping claim that Conte recently made against her on the ABC program "20/20" and in an interview with ESPN the Magazine.

Conte said he had devised a doping program for Jones, who went on to win five medals at the 2000 Olympics in Sydney, Australia, by using banned drugs that were undetectable or difficult to detect in routine screenings. He also said he had witnessed Jones injecting human growth hormone into her leg.

Jones has repeatedly denied using banned substances and faces no formal charges of cheating. Her lawsuit, filed in United States District Court in San Francisco and seeking $25 million, charges that Conte developed a vendetta against Jones after she refused to enter into a professional relationship with him and declined to endorse a legal dietary supplement called ZMA, which Balco manufactured. Conte was never involved in any aspect of Jones's training, the lawsuit says.

Conte's animosity toward Jones continued to grow, the lawsuit says, when she entered a romantic relationship with the sprinter Tim Montgomery, who holds the world record at 100 meters and who has also had a falling-out with Conte.

Conte's accusations against Jones have also threatened her endorsement contracts with corporate sponsors, the lawsuit says.

The suit called Conte's credibility into question, noting that his lawyers publicly denied early this year that Conte had told federal investigators he provided illicit substances to Jones and other athletes.

According to court papers filed on Jones's behalf, Conte's current accusations, which come months before he is scheduled to face trial on federal charges of distributing steroids and laundering money, "appear motivated by a desire to curry favor with prosecutors, garner sensationalized media attention, bolster Conte's own financial and other self-interests and harm an individual against whom Conte has a long-standing grudge."

Conte denied the accusations yesterday, saying in an e-mail statement that Jones's lawsuit was "nothing more than a P.R. stunt by a desperate woman who has regularly used drugs throughout her career."

Conte said he stood by everything he said on "20/20" and looked forward to the legal proceedings against him.

"I am telling the truth and Marion is lying," Conte said.

Whether or not she prevails in her lawsuit, Jones had already faced a difficult task in rehabilitating her reputation, legal and marketing experts said in the months before the Athens Olympics. In Athens, Jones did not win a medal in either of her events, the long jump or the 4x100-meter relay.

Her former husband, the retired shot-putter C. J. Hunter, tested positive four times for banned substances before the Sydney Olympics. The San Francisco Chronicle reported in July that Hunter told federal authorities that Jones had also used banned substances before the Sydney Games and that he had helped to inject them into her.

Jones's lawyers said Hunter was lying out of jealousy that his marriage had failed.

Montgomery, with whom Jones has a young son, faces accusations by the United States Anti-Doping Agency that he used illicit drugs in the Balco scandal. The accusations were built on evidence collected by federal investigators during a raid of the Balco lab in September 2003. The case has not been resolved.

The Chronicle reported in June that Montgomery admitted before a federal grand jury that he had used prohibited substances.

Jones and Montgomery drew the concern of track officials by training for a brief period with Charlie Francis, the disgraced coach of Ben Johnson.

[Dan Gould]

I don't see any reason to not believe Bonds. He did the creatine thing while it was legal, and then his trainer gave him something he didn't know was illegal after the rules changed.

Steroids were always illegal, regardless of whether or not baseball had a strong policy or not. They're a controlled drug and its illegal to distribute them improperly.

And you really find it plausible that his old buddy never told him? This man who is so suspicious of everyone took stuff only from his friend and didn't know. That is stupefying.

And if Bonds always hits five hundred foot "no doubters" why wasn't he doing it before? He never hit over 46 homers before the 1999 season. IN 13 + seasons, he had only three seasons of 40 homers or more prior to '99.

"I don't see any reason to not believe Bonds."

Call off the search, we've found the single most gullible person on the planet.

[Noj]

The creatine stuff was legal for a while. He gained size and power legally while it was legal.

[pryan]

Bonds was a big base-stealer in his younger days. Wasn't he the first 40-40 guy? I know McGuire was always a home run hitter, but not 60s, 70s. Those numbers are video game numbers. He used andro, which was legal but still not something that kids should put in their bodies. Your comment about Bonds could be true about McGuire too; he had big numbers, but then suddenly he broke out with HUGE numbers. That shouldn't happen at an advanced age either, according to your thinking. Bonds is bad, McGuire is not, I don't think that argument holds much weight.

[Dan Gould]

Bonds was a big base-stealer in his younger days. Wasn't he the first 40-40 guy? I know McGuire was always a home run hitter, but not 60s, 70s. Those numbers are video game numbers. He used andro, which was legal but still not something that kids should put in their bodies. Your comment about Bonds could be true about McGuire too; he had big numbers, but then suddenly he broke out with HUGE numbers. That shouldn't happen at an advanced age either, according to your thinking. Bonds is bad, McGuire is not, I don't think that argument holds much weight.

We may debate McGuire.

There can be no doubts about Bonds.

After all, McGuire didn't have a trainer accused of distribution of steroids, who distributed steroids to each client and told them what they were but {cough cough} didn't bother to tell Bonds.

On top of which, McGuire was always a big man. As you say Bonds was a scrawny base stealer when he reached the bigs.

[Big Wheel]

Bonds's defense that he didn't know is absurd. I certainly make a point of knowing what's in the vitamins and medicines I take, and I'm just some shmo who sits on his ass all day. Bonds depends on his body for a living. You're going to tell me that he just smeared on whatever Conte gave him without bothering to find out what was in it? Bullshit.

[pryan]

Bonds was a big base-stealer in his younger days.  Wasn't he the first 40-40 guy?  I know McGuire was always a home run hitter, but not 60s, 70s.  Those numbers are video game numbers.  He used andro, which was legal but still not something that kids should put in their bodies.  Your comment about Bonds could be true about McGuire too; he had big numbers, but then suddenly he broke out with HUGE numbers.  That shouldn't happen at an advanced age either, according to your thinking.  Bonds is bad, McGuire is not, I don't think that argument holds much weight.

We may debate McGuire.

There can be no doubts about Bonds.

After all, McGuire didn't have a trainer accused of distribution of steroids, who distributed steroids to each client and told them what they were but {cough cough} didn't bother to tell Bonds.

On top of which, McGuire was always a big man. As you say Bonds was a scrawny base stealer when he reached the bigs.

I wouldn't say a "scrawny base stealer", could hit forty home runs in a season, would you? That was when 40 was a pretty damn good home run total.

Andro is a pseudo-steroid and is now banned in MLB. Does that tarnish McGuire's epic season in 1998? I don't think so, but it should make one think about it a bit.

Edited December 16, 2004 by pryan

[Dan Gould]

I misread "big base stealer" as "scrawny", sorry.

But actually, the adjective isn't exactly wrong. Have you looked at pictures of Bonds when he broke in???

As for hitting 40, Bonds reached that level in his eighth year in the league. Before that, he'd only had two 30 homer seasons and other than those seasons, he averaged about 25 homers. So that's a nice fat jump there, followed by the much bigger jumps by the end of the decade.

As for McGuire, he hit 49 in his very first full season. He was a sensational home run hitter right from the start.

[Noj]

With McGwire's forearms swelling to the size of most people's thighs at the same time as Barry's body bulked up, I'd say if one's numbers are tainted then so are the other's.

[Jazzmoose]

Not only did Mac hit 49 his first year, he missed the last week or so of the season. Easily could have broken 50. Am I saying he wasn't juiced? Heck, I don't know. But if he was, he was there from day one of his major league career.

Canseco was the first 40-40 man, by the way.

[pryan]

Not only did Mac hit 49 his first year, he missed the last week or so of the season. Easily could have broken 50. Am I saying he wasn't juiced? Heck, I don't know. But if he was, he was there from day one of his major league career.

Canseco was the first 40-40 man, by the way.

You're right about Canseco, Mark. I think Bonds topped that mark as well, but also had a few 30-30 seasons which, IMO, is also pretty impressive.

[PHILLYQ]

The stuff that Mcgwire took was not technically a steroid, but became one when metabolized. Slap an asterisk on him, too-he's a juicer.

[brownie]

It looks like the great Museeuw has been caught at it...

From AFP today:

Cycling: Prosecutors accuse Museeuw of taking EPO: reports

BRUSSELS : Former Belgian cycling great Johan Museeuw took the blood-boosting drugs EPO and Aranesp in the 2003 season, the Belgian media reported quoting judicial sources.

The Belgian television station VRT and the De Morgen newspaper carried excerpts from the official record of the prosecutor in the case which probed text messages sent between Museeuw and veterinary surgeon Jose Landuyt who is under investigation for trafficking illegal drugs.

"In the exchange of faxes and SMS (text messages), interrogations and admissions of Landuyt and other people, it is established that Johan Museeuw took Aranesp and EPO," said the report.

On October 8 last year, Museeuw was given a two-year ban by the Belgian cycling federation for being implicated in the Landuyt doping affair.

However the 38-year-old, who won the 1996 world championship and was World Cup winner in 1995 and 1996, had not failed a drugs test and had already retired from the sport.

[tonym]

It looks like the great Museeuw has been caught at it...

From AFP today:

Cycling: Prosecutors accuse Museeuw of taking EPO: reports

BRUSSELS : Former Belgian cycling great Johan Museeuw took the blood-boosting drugs EPO and Aranesp in the 2003 season, the Belgian media reported quoting judicial sources.

The Belgian television station VRT and the De Morgen newspaper carried excerpts from the official record of the prosecutor in the case which probed text messages sent between Museeuw and veterinary surgeon Jose Landuyt who is under investigation for trafficking illegal drugs.

"In the exchange of faxes and SMS (text messages), interrogations and admissions of Landuyt and other people, it is established that Johan Museeuw took Aranesp and EPO," said the report.

On October 8 last year, Museeuw was given a two-year ban by the Belgian cycling federation for being implicated in the Landuyt doping affair.

However the 38-year-old, who won the 1996 world championship and was World Cup winner in 1995 and 1996, had not failed a drugs test and had already retired from the sport.

No surprise. Although it certainly doen't diminish his achievements in my eyes. He is one of the all time greats. In amongst fellow chargers or not.

Legend has it that when he suffered that awful crash in Paris - Roubaix a few years ago they took him via helicopter not to a French hospital but to a Belgian one in order to avoid the possibility of the over-zealous French authorities. He apparently was running at such a high haematocrit level that when he had to stop the race and his body slowed down, he arrested several times en route.

Don't know exactly how true this is but it sounds a likely scenario for many a competitor.