blue note 1591 real stereo?

[jazzhound]

are early blue notes released later in stereo fake stereo? refering to 1591 specifically but I wonder at what point stereo mixes were done and when only mono went down. thanks

[jazzhound]

are early blue notes released later in stereo fake stereo? refering to 1591 specifically but I wonder at what point stereo mixes were done and when only mono went down. thanks

well there are stereo tapes since Classic did a stereo release. thanks Google

[Swinging Swede]

Van Gelder started to record for Blue Note in stereo with The Stylings Of Silver (1562), recorded 8 May 1957. But Blue Note had recorded in stereo at Manhattan Towers earlier than that. Palo Congo (1561), recorded 27 April 1957 is in stereo, and I think Orgy In Rhythm (1554-5), recorded 7 March 1957 is in stereo too.

[mtodde]

Keep in mind that early stereo recordings will be very hard left/right with very little center fill on playback. That doesn't bother me but some people don't like it.

[Chuck Nessa]

Keep in mind that early stereo recordings will be very hard left/right with very little center fill on playback. That doesn't bother me but some people don't like it.

Depends how they are panned during mastering.

[michel1969]

(I don't know where) Some Blue Note professors say that starting somewhere in 1959, recordings were originally done stereo and then refolded for Mono. But some other Blue Note doctors (from elsewhere) says no. This is a huge and violent debate.

Edited February 3, 2009 by Michel

[Teasing the Korean]

In my opinion, though Chuck doesn't agree with me, most of RVG's stereo mixes achieve a better balance when collapsed to mono.

[Chuck Nessa]

In my opinion, though Chuck doesn't agree with me, most of RVG's stereo mixes achieve a better balance when collapsed to mono.

I don't necessarily disagree. I just think absolutist rules like this are not facts. Stereo recording was a learning curve for all engineers as was stereo mastering.

[Teasing the Korean]

In my opinion, though Chuck doesn't agree with me, most of RVG's stereo mixes achieve a better balance when collapsed to mono.

I don't necessarily disagree. I just think absolutist rules like this are not facts. Stereo recording was a learning curve for all engineers as was stereo mastering.

Understood. I will also say that I think RVG "got it" with regard to instrument placement in stereo long before a lot of other engineers. For example, he picked up on putting the louder, more cutting instruments off to one side or another, while centering the instruments more likely to get lost in the mix (like the bass and piano).

[mtodde]

I remember reading that when Steve Hoffman & Kevin Gray started out on their project to remaster the titles in the Music Matters & Analogue Productions reissue series on 45 RPM vinyl (and SACD for the Analogue Productions set) they were surprised that many titles thought to be mono were actually recorded in stereo & folded down to mono.

[Chuck Nessa]

What was stereo or mono or folded down from RVG has been available for over 20 years. I can't imagine Hoffman and Gray were surprised by this unless they are clueless.

[mtodde]

What was stereo or mono or folded down from RVG has been available for over 20 years. I can't imagine Hoffman and Gray were surprised by this unless they are clueless.

I couldn't find the thread where the actual tapes where discussed.

Here's something from someone that should definitively know...http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=45519

"I asked Blue Note's reissue producer, Michael Cuscuna about this and he replied:

"Art Blakey - Orgy In Rhythm 3/7/57, was the first mono and stereo session. Sabu 4/28/57 was the second. All studio dates from that point on, up to and including Art Blakey - Moanin' 10/30/58, were recorded on both mono and stereo machines.

After that all sessions were recorded in two track and folded down for mono."

FYI, with this info in hand, the first session issued in mono that was actually made from a folded-down stereo master was BLP-4004, Art Blakey's "Holiday For Skins, Vol. 1".

This also means that there is a mono master for Coltrane's "Blue Train". It was recorded 9/15/57, and if what I've read in the past is true, these mono masters will probably sound better. Supposedly Rudy Van Gelder only had a mono monitor set up during playback."

I have issues with a number of things that Hoffman says/does but based on MY ears I think these statements have a lot of truth in them...Steve is VERY good at getting what is on the master tape...

"Engineer Rudy usually has carefully split a band with a horn on the left and a reed on the right, bass and piano in the middle and drums on the right with a nice bleed through to the middle and thick, swirling stereo reverb that encircles the band in a 360 degree angle. This was not done in a haphazard fashion; it was done in a delicate, deliberate manner, well thought out and well balanced for the best stereo impact."

"As I wrote in the other thread and as I keep trying to explain to the folks, certain cues are lost when RVG stereo tapes are folded down to mono. Also, all of the out of phase information that occurs when recording live CANCEL OUT in L+R mono. They vanish, poof! Nobody knows this more than RVG himself. The monos were good enough for a 1961 Webcor phonograph but just because that sound was a compromise back then doesn't mean we are stuck with it now. The actual stereo (binaural) tapes reveal a sonic panorama "time machine" back to the past. We are lucky to have such a clear record of such amazing music."

"But NOT Van Gelder; his monos were not dedicated (like United, Radio Recorders, RCA-Victor, Western or Capitol) but just fold downs of the stereo master, redubbed L+R on a mono deck for extra tape hiss."

What Steve describes reminds me of what Roy DuNann did using echo to overcome the fact that Contemporary was recording in their mailroom...and what I don't like about Steve's work is that while very transparent it tends to strip out the steps the mastering engineers took to overcome limitations of the day.

Edited February 4, 2009 by mtodde

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

What seems very odd to me is that there were all these stereo recordings that BN only released in mono. In the BN 1967/68 catalogue - ie after Liberty took over - the following stereo releases are listed.

1554 - Orgy in rhythm vol 1 (but not vol 2 - isn't that strange?)

1563 - JOS plays pretty for you

1577 - Blue train

1593 - Blues walk

1595 - Somethin' else

4003 - Moanin'

4008 - Finger poppin'

4011 - Sermon

And so on - I'm not going to list them all - the highest number that doesn't appear to have been released in stereo was

4084 - Stop & listen

MG

[Shrdlu]

Rudy recorded separate mono and stereo mixes well into the early 60s, and the mono releases up to about the 4100 mark were not just collapsed down stereo. There was a thread about this a few years back on one of the usual boards.