The electric Miles legacy

[fasstrack]

It was when I heard "The Man With The Horn": "He's the man, he's the man, he's the man, he's the man with the horrrrrrnnn..." that I went "uh oh."

That last period was not his finest hour. Lotta editing required, I think. But it's cause his chops were in the shitter.

Branford Marsalis was trash-talking Miles from that period on his old wild-and-crazy website and I got bugged and called him on it b/c I felt it was disrespectful to a guy that helped launch him early on. (just like Miles himself calling Bird a greedly MF---it's just not classy to me) 'He didn't want cats to hear him", he said, meaning he was hiding behind the Harmon, etc. I gotta admit in retrospect Bran was right. Miles just was weak, musically and chops-wise. Trumpet is brutal after a layoff.

I thought Star People was the strongest. It's a good blues record. He definitely got it together for that one.

Enough dissin late Miles!

OK--Please listen to the track, Ursula, from that record "The Man With The Horn" and tell me Miles wasn't still with some of his charms...

Wasn't dissin' him at all, just callin' 'em like I see 'em. Like I said I dug Star People. The live album from Boston was good, too. I also heard the band live on the air from the Chicago Jazz Festival, I forget the year. He sounded pretty strong. I thpught that bass guitarist Foley was pretty nice.

[JSngry]

Miles' playing aside, those bands of the 90s were about the best instrumental pop-jazz bands that anybody's ever led. So much attention to color, texture, variety, pacing, etc. Really masterful bandleading by Miles even after his chops began to falter. The countless bootlegs show this better than the albums, but in truth, the only later albums I would consider "disposable" are Dingo & that Montreau thing.

And hey - ain't nobody got no love for Ricky Wellman? C'MON!!!

[Chuck Nessa]

[fasstrack]

Miles' playing aside, those bands of the 90s were about the best instrumental pop-jazz bands that anybody's ever led. So much attention to color, texture, variety, pacing, etc. Really masterful bandleading by Miles even after his chops began to falter. The countless bootlegs show this better than the albums, but in truth, the only later albums I would consider "disposable" are Dingo & that Montreau thing.

And hey - ain't nobody got no love for Ricky Wellman? C'MON!!!

I like Dingo. Who was that other trumpet player? He played his ass off. European, I think.

[JSngry]

Chuck Findley, iirc. A Californian.

Which to a New Yorker probably is foreign!

[JSngry]

You think I'm kidding about Ricky Wellman? I'm not. Ricky Wellman is the GOD of go-go. Ricky Wellman could make a dead man dance. Ricky Wellman is the reason why you can listen to a 45 minute Chuck Brown jam and not even begin to feel groove fatigue.

Of course, I use "you" in the generic sense...

[Chuck Nessa]

Of course, I use "you" in the generic sense...

I hate being used that way.

[JSngry]

Chuck Brown - The Party Roll

NO DISRESPECT ALLOWED!!!

[JSngry]

Of course, I use "you" in the generic sense...

I hate being used that way.

It's not you, it's the generic you.

But if you were agreeing with me about Ricky Wellman, then I take it all back!

Just that a lot of folks who don't like later Miles don't even get what's going on, like using Ricky Wellman, this guy really was/is a god in his own realm, and Miles very much wanted that feel because it swung. I hear charges of "lame funk" and such, and I gotta think that people don't know what it is they're hearing, they only know what they think they're hearing, and they got no reference to put it up against.

Again, not you specifically, but I gotta stand up for Ricky Wellman, I damn sure do.

[fasstrack]

Chuck Findley, iirc. A Californian.

Which to a New Yorker probably is foreign!

I hate to say it, not being competitive`or wanting to play each 'individual snowflake' off the next, but he embarrassed the formerly great Miles Davis on that recording. Just great ideas, sound, chops. He made Miles sound like an old man who stopped practicing. The CD with the rapper was even worse, and that's really big-time embarrassing.

There have only been two musicians, to my knowledge, that got out and did something else at the top of their games: Artie Shaw and Johnny Smith. (Isham Jones too, I guess). I respect that, it takes a lot of a lot of things to do that. I know why people keep playing, it's therapeutic and keeps you young, they don't know anything else to do, etc. But it's painful to hear Miles play like this.

In case anyone misunderstands: there are right now musicians in their 80s and 90s playing brilliantly. Clark Terry, Dr. Billy, Benny Golson, 'kiddies' Phil Woods and Barry Harris. Miles didn't end up in that category, sorry to say. He didn't need to embarrass himself, he's an all-time great. Just not on Dingo, Decoy, etc.

Edited June 30, 2009 by fasstrack

[JSngry]

Chuck Findley always sounds like that. Always.

Or hell, maybe it was Sol Marquez, now that I think about it...but same for him too. They always sound like that.

[fasstrack]

Chuck Findley always sounds like that. Always.

Or hell, maybe it was Sol Marquez, now that I think about it...but same for him too. They always sound like that.

Phew. I thought you were gonna argue with me......

[Trumpet Guy]

Chuck Findley, iirc. A Californian.

Which to a New Yorker probably is foreign!

I hate to say it, not being competitive`or wanting to play each 'individual snowflake' off the next, but he embarrassed the formerly great Miles Davis on that recording. Just great ideas, sound, chops. He made Miles sound like an old man who stopped practicing. The CD with the rapper was even worse, and that's really big-time embarrassing.

There have only been two musicians, to my knowledge, that got out and did something else at the top of their games: Artie Shaw and Johnny Smith. (Isham Jones too, I guess). I respect that, it takes a lot of a lot of things to do that. I know why people keep playing, it's therapeutic and keeps you young, they don't know anything else to do, etc. But it's painful to hear Miles play like this.

In case anyone misunderstands: there are right now musicians in their 80s and 90s playing brilliantly. Clark Terry, Dr. Billy, Benny Golson, 'kiddies' Phil Woods and Barry Harris. Miles didn't end up in that category, sorry to say. He didn't need to embarrass himself, he's an all-time great. Just not on Dingo, Decoy, etc.

I disagree--Decoy is a great record--sorry!

Don't love you ranking Chuck Findley's playing on Dingo as better than Miles' either, but its a free country Artistry?

Also--easy to dis' DooBop as well, but Miles is truly playing great lines--very chromatic and rap like...Miles didn't lose his chops or technique to me...his artistry is always there, even if you don't like who he's playing with.

[JSngry]

About what? The price of artistry sometimes being paid at the expense of declining craftsmanship? About how if you always sound "that way", then what does "always sounding that way" really mean?

Never!

[fasstrack]

Chuck Findley, iirc. A Californian.

Which to a New Yorker probably is foreign!

I hate to say it, not being competitive`or wanting to play each 'individual snowflake' off the next, but he embarrassed the formerly great Miles Davis on that recording. Just great ideas, sound, chops. He made Miles sound like an old man who stopped practicing. The CD with the rapper was even worse, and that's really big-time embarrassing.

There have only been two musicians, to my knowledge, that got out and did something else at the top of their games: Artie Shaw and Johnny Smith. (Isham Jones too, I guess). I respect that, it takes a lot of a lot of things to do that. I know why people keep playing, it's therapeutic and keeps you young, they don't know anything else to do, etc. But it's painful to hear Miles play like this.

In case anyone misunderstands: there are right now musicians in their 80s and 90s playing brilliantly. Clark Terry, Dr. Billy, Benny Golson, 'kiddies' Phil Woods and Barry Harris. Miles didn't end up in that category, sorry to say. He didn't need to embarrass himself, he's an all-time great. Just not on Dingo, Decoy, etc.

I disagree--Decoy is a great record--sorry!

Don't love you ranking Chuck Findley's playing on Dingo as better than Miles' either, but its a free country Artistry?

Also--easy to dis' DooBop as well, but Miles is truly playing great lines--very chromatic and rap like...Miles didn't lose his chops or technique to me...his artistry is always there, even if you don't like who he's playing with.

I never said anything about who he was playing with. They were not the problem. Miles was the problem.

To tie in my original point: The exact thing I told Branford back in the day was almost identical to what you are saying: his spirit was strong and carried him. He gave me what I took to be a snotty answer, something like 'spirit didn't count for much when you can't play no more'. I took a lot of heat on that site generally, thinking they were all Marsalis ass-licks, and many were. But Branford turned out to be a good cat, I met Wynton twice since and he could not have been nicer. Even the, er, hated and maligned Stanley Crouch (in some quarters) turned out to be not at all what I thought. His dirty secret is that he's really a good guy. Trust me, no one resented that seemingly anti-Miles troika more than me, Miles being one of my main heros. It seemed they were trying to write Miles out of history for their own ends, and I guess the debate and accusations will go on as long as people (like me...) have time to waste on it. I also always dug Branford's playing. The point is, he was there. He was on the dates. His words therefore have some weight, like 'em or not. Did he suffer from familial prejudice? Probably. That's understandable. Is in less than classy to badmouth an employer who helped make your name? Yeah. But (and this is all my opinion now) when you evaluate the music Miles himself doesn't smell like a rose. He just was weak and trading in cartoon-like shadows of his former greatness and some of those recordings should not have been put out. The one with the rapper should be stomped into the ground. He should have bought up all the copies like the scene from Silent Movie. Like I said, Star People was really nice, and We Want Miles. The 70s stuff he played his ass off on.

What I'm getting at too: I used to always resent guys with chops until I grew up a little and realized I had to practice more. Art is craft to an extent, and a large one. Humanity, intuition, and expression have to lead, but if you can't get it out who's gonna know? Technique that lets you be yourself is the best kind, together with talent they make art. That's what made Miles so special, so one-of-a-kind. But it's also sad when a guy, a great individual no less, takes himself on a trip where he's talking all kinds of mess about 'new music' and 'people don't get it', etc. and the reality is he's just embarrassing himself.

Edited June 30, 2009 by fasstrack

[JSngry]

He just was weak and trading in cartoon-like shadows of his former greatness and some of those recordings should not have been put out.

There's a slew of, for instance, Coleman Hawkins records of which this could also be said. Still, there's a story being told, or more accurately, finished, and I'd not be without them.

[fasstrack]

He just was weak and trading in cartoon-like shadows of his former greatness and some of those recordings should not have been put out.

There's a slew of, for instance, Coleman Hawkins records of which this could also be said. Still, there's a story being told, or more accurately, finished, and I'd not be without them.

I guess. Which Bean records, anyway? Torwards the end no doubt.

Why do some greats burn out and others last to advanced age? They´re all just as talented and thereby high-strung so the ´intense genius burnout´ thing won´t wash by me. Any theories? (Ha, I guess I should ask how often bears shit in the woods....)

Edited July 1, 2009 by fasstrack

[Niko]

He just was weak and trading in cartoon-like shadows of his former greatness and some of those recordings should not have been put out.

There's a slew of, for instance, Coleman Hawkins records of which this could also be said. Still, there's a story being told, or more accurately, finished, and I'd not be without them.

I guess. Which Bean records, anyway? Torwards the end no doubt.

Why do some greats burn out and others last to advanced age? They´re all just as talented and thereby high-strung so the ´intense genius burnout´ thing won´t wash by me. Any theories? (Ha, I guess I should ask how often bears shit in the woods....)

not an entire theory... but i'd throw in the claim that guys like sonny stitt and art pepper who were to a (maybe overly large) extent driven by competing with other saxophone players, "sportive guys", had a longer peak than many others who were maybe driven more strongly by trying to, say, express themselves, settle something with themselves...

)

[fasstrack]

He just was weak and trading in cartoon-like shadows of his former greatness and some of those recordings should not have been put out.

There's a slew of, for instance, Coleman Hawkins records of which this could also be said. Still, there's a story being told, or more accurately, finished, and I'd not be without them.

I guess. Which Bean records, anyway? Torwards the end no doubt.

Why do some greats burn out and others last to advanced age? They´re all just as talented and thereby high-strung so the ´intense genius burnout´ thing won´t wash by me. Any theories? (Ha, I guess I should ask how often bears shit in the woods....)

not an entire theory... but i'd throw in the claim that guys like sonny stitt and art pepper who were to a (maybe overly large) extent driven by competing with other saxophone players, "sportive guys", had a longer peak than many others who were maybe driven more strongly by trying to, say, express themselves, settle something with themselves...

)

But both those guys died too young. It's interesting you bring it up and what you say, but it doesn't answer my question----just poses another, which maybe is better.

It's also interesting that Stitt pretty much played the same on all his horns throughout his life. Art Pepper changed radically after he came back from the pen---and a lot of people didn't like it, but it was real. Maybe that makes him a bit like Miles, dunno.

[JSngry]

He just was weak and trading in cartoon-like shadows of his former greatness and some of those recordings should not have been put out.

There's a slew of, for instance, Coleman Hawkins records of which this could also be said. Still, there's a story being told, or more accurately, finished, and I'd not be without them.

I guess. Which Bean records, anyway? Torwards the end no doubt.

Yeah, Wrapped Tight is the first one that comes to mind, from about that time on out.

He just was weak and trading in cartoon-like shadows of his former greatness and some of those recordings should not have been put out.

There's a slew of, for instance, Coleman Hawkins records of which this could also be said. Still, there's a story being told, or more accurately, finished, and I'd not be without them.

I guess. Which Bean records, anyway? Torwards the end no doubt.

Why do some greats burn out and others last to advanced age? They´re all just as talented and thereby high-strung so the ´intense genius burnout´ thing won´t wash by me. Any theories? (Ha, I guess I should ask how often bears shit in the woods....)

not an entire theory... but i'd throw in the claim that guys like sonny stitt and art pepper who were to a (maybe overly large) extent driven by competing with other saxophone players, "sportive guys", had a longer peak than many others who were maybe driven more strongly by trying to, say, express themselves, settle something with themselves...

)

But both those guys died too young. It's interesting you bring it up and what you say, but it doesn't answer my question----just poses another, which maybe is better.

It's also interesting that Stitt pretty much played the same on all his horns throughout his life. Art Pepper changed radically after he came back from the pen---and a lot of people didn't like it, but it was real. Maybe that makes him a bit like Miles, dunno.

Maybe hiking throught the mountains is harder on you than calesthetics in your bedroom?

[fasstrack]

He just was weak and trading in cartoon-like shadows of his former greatness and some of those recordings should not have been put out.

There's a slew of, for instance, Coleman Hawkins records of which this could also be said. Still, there's a story being told, or more accurately, finished, and I'd not be without them.

I guess. Which Bean records, anyway? Torwards the end no doubt.

Yeah, Wrapped Tight is the first one that comes to mind, from about that time on out.

He just was weak and trading in cartoon-like shadows of his former greatness and some of those recordings should not have been put out.

There's a slew of, for instance, Coleman Hawkins records of which this could also be said. Still, there's a story being told, or more accurately, finished, and I'd not be without them.

I guess. Which Bean records, anyway? Torwards the end no doubt.

Why do some greats burn out and others last to advanced age? They´re all just as talented and thereby high-strung so the ´intense genius burnout´ thing won´t wash by me. Any theories? (Ha, I guess I should ask how often bears shit in the woods....)

not an entire theory... but i'd throw in the claim that guys like sonny stitt and art pepper who were to a (maybe overly large) extent driven by competing with other saxophone players, "sportive guys", had a longer peak than many others who were maybe driven more strongly by trying to, say, express themselves, settle something with themselves...

)

But both those guys died too young. It's interesting you bring it up and what you say, but it doesn't answer my question----just poses another, which maybe is better.

It's also interesting that Stitt pretty much played the same on all his horns throughout his life. Art Pepper changed radically after he came back from the pen---and a lot of people didn't like it, but it was real. Maybe that makes him a bit like Miles, dunno.

Maybe hiking throught the mountains is harder on you than calesthetics in your bedroom?

You lost me there, honcho. Don't bogart that joint and maybe I'll get it

[JSngry]

Just saying that Stitt didn't particularly "explore", he basically "worked out".

[Chuck Nessa]

Great point. Sonny coasted when the situation allowed and after the '50s he exercised his '50s chops when forced.

[JSngry]

And as long as the issue is longevity, hell, I think in the case of both Pepper & Stitt the answer is self-evident... if anything Pepper ahd worse habits but a better support system, and that's half the battle right there, at least the part of it that can be won...

[fasstrack]

Great point. Sonny coasted when the situation allowed and after the '50s he exercised his '50s chops when forced.

I don't think he 'coasted', nor do I much like that notion. There are great players that have a storehouse of licks. They can mix them up when inspired or get inspiration from other great players. That's what it's sort of about. On guitar you could say Grant Green and Jimmy Raney (Grant's a bigger name, Raney a much greater player to me, even Green idolized him, but Grant is cool too, nice feel and sound and a good story-teller, just a bit over-rated IMO) 'recycled'. But to me, Raney grew because that foundation is like money in the bank. It's there to be built on. Raney got more emotional, more spatial, absorbed classical influences like Bartok, and got back to Django even, to my ears---while being himself, and a deeper, more mature self. Grant Green was a natural for blues and pop projects, he had that kind of feel, voice, and concept. He did well with it. Jimmy did not want to go there and wasn't really a blues player, his blues and playing generally was much more 'subtle'.

In the case of Art Pepper he allowed himself to be honest emotionally when he changed and it wasn't neccesarily a pretty picture but it was genuine and real art, like Bird trying to do that Cole Porter project when he was in bad shape. The music was great in a way it couldn't have been if he was 'in shape'.

If players like Stitt or Oscar Peterson 'go to the bank' to achieve the amazing consistency they did good for them. You need glue to hold your thing together b/c inspiration cannot be manufactured. I would no more put down this type of great player----and I've played with many, they are exciting as hell---than I would call Jim Hall a bore for choosing to express himself in a low-key way or not playing 'fast'. All types are welcome to me and command different responses, but equal respect and admiration. Quality, skill, veracity is what it's about for me. The idea is to be spontaneously creative, but you need that 'money'. No coasting there IMO. Please don't be so hard on cats.

Edited July 2, 2009 by fasstrack