Evan Parker @ Stone NYC

[Steve Reynolds]

free music or free improvisation is not based on random forms

this is more language or a descriptor which denigrates what the great free musicians do

Gold is Where You Find It

[A Lark Ascending]

Not to mention the occasional places where he plays inside a 'straight' context without losing anything of his character. A fair few Kenny Wheeler records and this completely straight yet enormously entertaining disc:

I've seen Parker many times and have always found him mesmerising - he hits a point in those circular breathing marathons when you can almost hear two musical lines shaping. I don't know if this is intentional or fantasy on my part but it sounds like he veers from low to high notes very rapidly and eventual the lower and higher notes seem to take on a parallel life of their own.

Evan Parker is one of the musicians who keep me trying with the free/abstract area of jazz. I'm not a natural listener in that area but something really clicks with his music.

Such a pity that the Appleby festival had to fold. The 'Freezone' Sunday afternoon he ran in a deconsecrated church there brought together a wonderful range of improvisers.

[AllenLowe]

sorry, it is a random, automatic form. There is no pre-planned map - just listen to Parker; I have spent hours. It is the reason I think that free players have played themselves into the same corner that beboppers have.

free players often have detailed philosophical justifications for what they do, which is fine. And the association of one phrase to another, I would agree, only somewhat, reduces the randonmness (or the appearance of randomness) of what they play. Hell, bebop improvisers are random performers, with maybe a bit more of a road map to go on. Either method leads to repetition and an eventual exhaustion of ideas. There is a difference between an excellent idea (which free jazz is) and an organizing principle (which free jazz, IMHO, is not) -

this all goes back to some principles of noise music plus the early days of free improvisers. Many of these players identified the problem correctly but did not really solve it. Same with the minimalists. The closes thing to a musical solution that I have heard are some late 1960s and early 1970s punk and garage rockers. Most free jazz induces boredom, goes on too long. Which, yes, may be the point. I just don't find it interesting after about 2 minutes. I'd rather hear things like the Minutemen or the Sonics, Teenage Jesus and he Jerks, or the Ready Men. And this from someone whose has played "free" in many contexts. It just depends how you use it.

for example, "noise" is very big up here in Maine, and I regularly hear, at a small venue in town, guys using it in very creative ways - for about 5 minutes, and then it becomes another kind of dead-end formalism, as I think free jazz is. Parker is a master musician, but I find the written descriptions of his playing more interesting than his actual playing; I think writers tend to fit him into some personal visions which speak more to what the music is not than what it is.

Edited October 18, 2009 by AllenLowe

[Alexander Hawkins]

sorry, it is a random, automatic form. There is no pre-planned map - just listen to Parker; I have spent hours. It is the reason I think that free players have played themselves into the same corner that beboppers have.

Well, to nit-pick, 'random'/'automatic' is a rather awkward (come-nonsensical?) pairing. And nor does no pre-planning necessarily equate to/lead to randomness or automation. FWIW, my perspective - I have of course spent hours listening to him; precious few, but at least some of them from the piano chair in his bands, so I guess I have at least some insight on how the music does in fact unfold.

free players often have detailed philosophical justifications for what they do, which is fine. And the association of one phrase to another, I would agree, only somewhat, reduces the randonmness (or the appearance of randomness) of what they play.

Well, association of musical phrases is only one - the most obvious - of the ways to do it. There are obviously a huge number of other organising devices which can be in play.

Hell, bebop improvisers are random performers, with maybe a bit more of a road map to go on. Either method leads to repetition and an eventual exhaustion of ideas.

I'm not sure what you're actual argument about bop is, but I for one am slightly confused about this idea of randomness with a road map...

There is a difference between an excellent idea (which free jazz is) and an organizing principle (which free jazz, IMHO, is not) -

That's presumably only a personal preference, that distinction, though?

I don't want to be argumentative for the sake of it, but I do feel your account verges on the caricature at the moment and sells what Parker does waaaaay short. My personal opinion (although one shared by many!) is that he's a genius...but this notwithstanding, at the very least, he is sui generis (restructuralist, if you will) to the extent that I don't believe he can usefully be lumped in with your imagined concept of 'free jazz'. Of course that you don't enjoy him for more than a couple of minutes is something we can't argue with...but I think your methodological claims about what's going on with the music don't really represent how it's done in all but the most facile instances.

[AllenLowe]

well, my argument is based on the reality, I think, of how the improviser works - randomness merely indicates a freedom of improvisational movement - the roadmap is the structure on which the improviser works - beboppers use chord changes, free players use personal themes, sonic ideas, motifs - not a HUGE amount of organizing devices, I think, and a constantly narrowing number through repetition. This music is tired and old, to my ears (and don't forget that formally it has existed as an idea for about 50 years). It also borders on the narcisstic at times. Far easier for the improviser to just show up at the gig and just blow. Sorry, but that's the way I hear it after all these years, and have spent some time with Parker's work - technically impressive, intellectually less so, emotionally in-between. To me he is mostly self-referential in his playing, and this is, for me, a big problem.

My argument is caricature only if you lump me with the usual critics like Gitler, et al, in my criticisms. But my comments (and musical ideas) come from the inside out, from having (like yourself) played this music from all sides, in open settings, with arrangements, with players like Hemphill and Rudd who can work virtually every angle (and from a long and interesting conversation about 2 years ago with Braxton, who praised Parker to the skies but clearly, in the bigger picture, thought that much of the idea of free playing had run is course). I will end with what I posted over on another thread about Ran Blake:

"to me, Blake has solved the whole freedom argument in jazz - showed how one can create a sense of open form while at the same time having brilliant musical focus - of course, it helps to be playing solo in order to do this. But I think Ran has an amazing sense of stationery development - shows how one can be both vertical and horizontal at the same time, musically speaking. Running in place, maybe, but always getting somewhere"

I still find certain free players compelling - been watching Matt Shipp on youtube this morning - there is such a pervasive internal organizing force in his music which is beyond freedom or glib ideas of sonics - it is compelling and organized and, most importantly, to the point. Obviously we will not reconcile our disagreements here, as all of his is increasingly subjective - another of the problems with free playing, IMHO. But many people I respect disagree with me strongly on these matters. I am well aware of that -

Edited October 18, 2009 by AllenLowe

[7/4]

Obviously, Allen just doesn't get it.

.

[AllenLowe]

as I predicted, we can only insult each other here under the guise of dialog -

my comments, per Alexander, are "nonsensical" and "caricature" -

and now I simply don't get it. Condescension as argument -

Edited October 18, 2009 by AllenLowe

[7/4]

Doesn't appear as if you like this kind of music Allen. It really sounds like you just want to argue about anything.

:rsmile:

Edited October 18, 2009 by 7/4

[Steve Reynolds]

listen to Evan with Barry Guy's New Orchestra

this is music with Barry's charts and free playing within those confines - and he plays the charts as well

many believe what Allen believes

I have been listening to those people for many years

I choose not be jaded simply because "free jazz" has been around now for 50 years

[AllenLowe]

on what is that available? would like to hear it.

and please don't assume I'm jaded - I like what I like and vice versa; it's not a personality disorder.

[Alexander Hawkins]

on what is that available? would like to hear it.

and please don't assume I'm jaded - I like what I like and vice versa; it's not a personality disorder.

Allen - certainly no insult intended on my part - apologies if it came over that way. Just trying to spell our another possible viewpoint!

Re the Barry Guy New Orchestra - I think it's on Intakt. Also, are you familiar with the London Jazz Composers Orchestra stuff? Some wonderful big band writing there too, with an awesome lineup, including Evan.

Then there's all his playing with the Brotherhood, etc...

Of course for some more compositional stuff in yet another direction, there are the two recent ECMs with the Parker/Roscoe Mitchell large-ish group.

I actually heard him play Evidence mid-set not too long ago. He also occasionally plays Lacy tunes, I believe, although I haven't heard that (would love to though!).

on what is that available? would like to hear it.

and please don't assume I'm jaded - I like what I like and vice versa; it's not a personality disorder.

Allen - certainly no insult intended on my part - apologies if it came over that way. Just trying to spell our another possible viewpoint!

Re the Barry Guy New Orchestra - I think it's on Intakt. Also, are you familiar with the London Jazz Composers Orchestra stuff? Some wonderful big band writing there too, with an awesome lineup, including Evan.

Then there's all his playing with the Brotherhood, etc...

Of course for some more compositional stuff in yet another direction, there are the two recent ECMs with the Parker/Roscoe Mitchell large-ish group.

I actually heard him play Evidence mid-set not too long ago. He also occasionally plays Lacy tunes, I believe, although I haven't heard that (would love to though!).

[7/4]

I actually heard him play Evidence mid-set not too long ago. He also occasionally plays Lacy tunes, I believe, although I haven't heard that (would love to though!).

When a few of us were hanging with him between sets Wednesday night, Evan mentioned he has been reading the new Monk bio.

[Steve Reynolds]

the 2 Barry Guy New Orchestra discs are on Intakt

from 2002 & 2007

They are both powerhouse performances with the earlier Inscape/Tableaux probably more accesable. The opening track has Evan Parker & Mats Gustaffson back to back on tenor over and with the roaring band.

for LJCO - a good entry point is the classic recording Harmos - also on Intakt from 1989

[AllenLowe]

thanks, guys, will check out - actually saw the Barry Guy Orch years ago at that festival up in Canada -

please don't think that I think he has to play tunes to be legit - I certainly don't - internally I've gone back and forth on these questions over the years - always fascinated by the concepts developed by these guys, by the techniques used by people like Parker, but always frustrated by the results. As I start to organize a band again, of course, I am grappling with the same questions - and of course, play with musicians who have trouble playing "open" and you suddenly realize that this music is not easy to play.

some of this may be related to my obsession with literary and dramatic form as well, and my personal belief in the unity of those expressive forms, literature and music, with which I continually obsess. I an wary of formalism, and sometimes I find that a lot of the music that bothers me has come up with a formal solution but not necessarily an organizational solution.

of course I wake up nights worried that I am completely wrong about everything.

Edited October 19, 2009 by AllenLowe

[coreymwamba]

Even if you've played with Evan and know him better than most of us [like Alex has], don't argue with Allen.

He's not listening to you so there's no point. What started out as a discussion about a live show by a recognised heavyweight has ended up as a discussion about Allen's opinion.

Just move on.

[AllenLowe]

are there actually any moderators in this place? or should I just be polite and pretend coreymwamba doesn't exist?

I find the last post to be quite offensive. Unless personal attacks are now considered to be acceptable.

The lack of respect for a member's opinion and experience is lousy; beyond that it creates a sense of intimidation, and really says "we don't want to hear from you unless you agree with us."

It is contemptuous and on a par with, say, trying to embarrass a member for spelling something incorrectly (because learning disabilities are hilarious; ask Litweiler) -

Edited October 19, 2009 by AllenLowe

[7/4]

Even if you've played with Evan and know him better than most of us [like Alex has], don't argue with Allen.

He's not listening to you so there's no point. What started out as a discussion about a live show by a recognised heavyweight has ended up as a discussion about Allen's opinion.

Just move on.

That's pretty much it.

[AllenLowe]

this from the guy who posted a picture of himself playing the guitar?

good stuff.

[7/4]

this from the guy who posted a picture of himself playing the guitar?

good stuff.

It was a discussion about what guitars we're playing now, I was holding my guitar - entirely on topic.

Right now, I'm a handicapped person recovering from an accident playing guitar Allen. Why are you picking on me?

[AllenLowe]

exactly, thanks for making my point - I was posting my opinions on the subject at hand - Evan Parker, as I recall.

I'm glad we're all in a happy space now.

Edited October 19, 2009 by AllenLowe

[7/4]

exactly, thanks for making my point - I was posting my opinions on the subject at hand - Evan Parker, as I recall.

Then what's the point about mentioning a photo in another thread? I didn't post any photo of me playing a guitar in this thread.

Allen is only looking for an argument.

[AllenLowe]

I'm glad we're all in a happy space now.

[7/4]

both make nice music, but not as good as me.

[AllenLowe]

was, at the time, responding to your direct question.

but I understand blackouts.

[Ron S]

Allen is only looking for an argument.

I happen to know for a fact that Allen hasn't worn his hair like that for AT LEAST 3 years. And his navel is an innie, not an outie (or, at least, that's what I've heard).