Michael Weiss Posted December 29, 2010 Report Share Posted December 29, 2010 (edited) Guitar Slim With Lloyd Lambert And His Orchestra Joe Morris (tp) Matthew Gee (tb) Johnny Griffin (ts) Elmo Hope (p) Guitar Slim (Eddie Jones) (g, vo) Percy Heath (b) Philly Joe Jones (d)NYC, January 22, 1958 4109 | 57C346 When There's No Way Out -Atco 6120 4110 | 57C347 If I Had My Life To Live Over -Atco 6120, LP 33-103 4111 | 57C348 Along About Midnight - Atlantic SD 7226 4112 | 57C349 My Time Is Expensive - Atlantic unissued * Various Artists - Rockin' Together (Atco LP 33-103) * Various Artists - Texas Guitar: From Dallas To L.A. (Atlantic SD 7226) * Guitar Slim - If I Had My Life To Live Over c/w When There's No Way Out (Atco 6120) Looks like the leader accompanied by the Joe Morris band of old. Anybody heard this? Edited December 29, 2010 by Michael Weiss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul secor Posted December 29, 2010 Report Share Posted December 29, 2010 Check out http://www.amazon.com/Atco-Sessions-Guitar-Slim/dp/B000BPPVPS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1293590436&sr=1-1 for all of his Atco recordings. The best Guitar Slim is his Specialty stuff http://www.amazon.com/Sufferin-Mind-Guitar-Slim/dp/B000000QMA/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1293590704&sr=1-1 but there are some fine cuts on the Atco compilation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kh1958 Posted December 29, 2010 Report Share Posted December 29, 2010 The Atco CD didn't do much for me. In addition to the essential Specialty recordings, there are a few additional worthwhile tracks on the Classics Guitar Slim CD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold_Z Posted December 29, 2010 Report Share Posted December 29, 2010 I have an Atlantic lp 81760 "Guitar Slim Atco Sessions" that includes all four tracks mentioned. The personnel listings for this are "The Joe Morris Band; Joe Morris Trpt, Remainder Unknown." So it's great to get the personnel here - especially considering who's on this date. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Weiss Posted December 29, 2010 Author Report Share Posted December 29, 2010 (edited) Thanks for providing the amazon link. While I'm happy to learn about Guitar Slim, my primary interest were the sidemen and if they solo on these tracks. Interesting to see Griff, Philly Joe, Percy and Elmo playing on this kind of date in 1958. Edited December 29, 2010 by Michael Weiss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Beat Steve Posted December 29, 2010 Report Share Posted December 29, 2010 (edited) I've had the TEXAS GUITAR: FROM DALLAS TO L.A. LP ever since it was current (mid- to late 70s). As I had only heard "The Things That I Used To Do" by him before that time his track on that compilation introduced me to more of Guitar Slim (and made me search out more by him later), and in fact this 70s LP does give the full line-up as given in the opening post. No mention of any involvement of Lloyd Lambert anywhere. So Atlantic knew what was up at that time. BTW, all three released tracks from that session also are on Guitar Slim's LP "Red Cadillacs & Crazy Chicks" (Sundown CG 709-08). P.S. @Michael Weiss: This 1958 date may well have been a sort of "Joe Morris reunion" (for whatever reason). Johnny Griffin was a stalwart of the Joe Morris band in the late 40s, and except for the absence of the baritone saxophone man, the lineup on that 1958 Atlantic session is a 100% duplication of the lineup of a Sept. 19, 1948 recording date by the Joe Morris band! Edited December 29, 2010 by Big Beat Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted December 29, 2010 Report Share Posted December 29, 2010 he was a wild man, lotsa distortion. One of my favorites. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul secor Posted December 30, 2010 Report Share Posted December 30, 2010 (edited) When I saw the beginning of this thread last night, it was late and the personnel on the session didn't kick in. Some questions - Is it likely that all of the members of the 1948 Joe Morris Band (minus baritone saxist Bill McLemore) would be recruited to play on a 1958 r&b session? I've read that Elmo Hope moved to Los Angeles in 1957 - He recorded for Pacific Jazz with a group that included Harold Land in that year. On the other hand - The pianist on "Along About Midnight" plays some light bluesy piano that possibly could have been played by Elmo Hope. (Incidentally, that's the only playing by any member of the band that stands out on any of the four numbers recorded on the session.) It's possible that Elmo Hope could have been back in NY for a short period and done the date. And - The recording session was produced by Herb Abramson, one of the founders of Atlantic, who seems to have been more of a music fan than he was a businessman - perhaps part of the reason he ended up being aced out at Atlantic. From what I've read about Herb Abramson, he might well have done the work and gone to the expense to recruit the former members of the Joe Morris Band to play on a session like this. The discography in the liners of the Atco Sessions lists the personnel as: Joe Morris, Trumpet; remainder unknown. Leadbitter/Slaven's Blues Records has the same listing - perhaps that's where the liner note info came from. A friend of mine is in intermittent contact with Pete Lowry, who produced the Texas Guitar reissue, which lists the personnel that Michael Weiss quoted. I'll ask my friend to see if he can find out where Pete got his information. Edited December 30, 2010 by paul secor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul secor Posted January 13, 2011 Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 (edited) I e-mailed Pete Lowry and asked for any details he might have for the source of his discographical info. Got the following response: "The info came either from tape boxes, or files... cannot remember at this distance. I did not talk with Herb, though... I did meet him later on under different circumstances at his place in NYC. That was standard Atlantic studio guys... jazz musicians moonlighting in the R'n'B world. I was a bit surprised at the time, but further knowledge showed that it wasn't unusual. They were professional and more than competent, and other labels did similarly. Hell, Eddie Kirkland's TruSound LP sessions had King Curtis' band with Oliver Nelson and Billy Butler in in! A gig is a gig is a gig!!!" So the personnel listed on Texas Guitar is probably correct. The pianist on "Along About Midnight" does sound as if it could well be Elmo Hope. An added tidbit - near the end of "Along About Midnight', one of the musicians (sounds like the saxophonist) plays a note or two by himself, thinking that the song is ending, but Slim does an unaccompanied vocal coda before the tune ends. Then all of the musicians play the ending. There obviously wasn't much attention paid to arrangements, rehearsals, or second takes. That was the r&b record biz, I guess. It still ended up being a good record. Edited January 13, 2011 by paul secor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Beat Steve Posted January 13, 2011 Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 Thanks for that follow-up info. It helps to complete the overall picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John L Posted January 13, 2011 Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 (edited) Note that the discographical entry in the original post states "Guitar Slim with Lloyd Lambert and His Orchestra." I just listened through the tracks, and it strikes me that he likely IS playing with Lloyd Lambert and His Orchestra, not with Joe Morris (who died in 1958), Johnny Griffin, Matthew Gee, Elmo Hope, Percy Heath, & Philly Joe Jones. Lloyd Lambert never had a band like that. As was mentioned above, Joe Morris did, but 10 years earlier. Edited January 13, 2011 by John L Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul secor Posted January 13, 2011 Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 Lloyd Lambert was Guitar Slim's band leader and the bassist in his band. And Lloyd Lambert was the band leader on several of Slim's Atlantic sessions, both in New Orleans and in New York. However, no discography that I've seen lists Lloyd Lambert as the leader of Guitar Slim's last session - the one in question. I don't know where Michael got that header from -especially since the personnel listed below makes no mention of Lloyd Lambert. The band on that last session sounds somewhat different than the bands on the sessions credited in discographies to Lloyd Lambert's band. I've never heard any solos by Lawrence Cotton, the pianist in the Lambert band on the other Guitar Slim Atlantic sessions, but the pianist who does play on that sounds like a jazz pianist to me. Who knows? Perhaps Joe Morris got the leader gig and recruited some of his old band members to do the session. Joe Morris did die in 1958, but in November of that year. I've read that he was active until he died of a cerebral hemorage, and the Guitar Slim session was held in January, 1958, so it's possible that he was the band leader. All of the musicians who were possibly involved and producer Herb Abramson have passed away, so we'll probably never know for sure who played on that session (except for Guitar Slim, of course). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Beat Steve Posted January 14, 2011 Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 (edited) Note that the discographical entry in the original post states "Guitar Slim with Lloyd Lambert and His Orchestra." I just listened through the tracks, and it strikes me that he likely IS playing with Lloyd Lambert and His Orchestra, not with Joe Morris (who died in 1958), Johnny Griffin, Matthew Gee, Elmo Hope, Percy Heath, & Philly Joe Jones. Lloyd Lambert never had a band like that. As was mentioned above, Joe Morris did, but 10 years earlier. I don't know where Michael got that header from - especially since the personnel listed below makes no mention of Lloyd Lambert. I think there is a huuuuuge mixup there: Check out the relevant entry in the Leadbitter/Slaven BLUES discography and you will see that there is a sort of MAIN header in BOLD prior to the session PRECEDING the one we are talking about (i.e. the one held on 11 Oct. 57). This generic "main" header reads: with LLOYD LAMBERT & HIS ORCHESTRA (4088/90) or with JOE MORRIS BAND (4109712) and then details of BOTH sessions follow after this "main" header as a sort of "sub-entries". Now if whoever compiled the entry as given in the starting post failed to read up to the end of the BOLDFACE line it may have been relatively easy to combine Lloyd Lambert as the nominal leader with Joe Morris and the others. Still it is puzzling to see all those jazz bigwigs get together again for a Joe morris band reunion for that Guitar Slim session. Pete Lowry's explanation as told to Paul Secor makes sense to me but still ... I figure that given the ups and downs of his career, Elmo Hope may have been ready to grab any session man gig he could make (assuming he'd been East at that time anyway) but would Percy Heath or PJJ have been that keen on this type of "reunion" to go to any lengths about it? Yet it's a charming idea and another indication that jazz and R&B weren't THAT far apart in the minds of the musicians after all. Now of course if Ken Vail, for example, did another of his "Jazz Diaries" on the Modern Jazz Quartet and proved conclusively that the MJQ happened to play a concert tour at the other end of the world while that Guitar Slim session was taking place then the plausibility of the presence of Percy Heath (and maybe others) would definitely be shattered. Edited January 14, 2011 by Big Beat Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John L Posted January 14, 2011 Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 It would be more probable to me if Morris et al had made some other music at that date. To call a reunion like that just to give some rather standard and not too exciting R&B accompaniment to Guitar Slim doesn't make much sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul secor Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 I don't know who played on that date. Just tried to use what resources I could find and my ears to try and help figure things out. As far as Joe Morris & the other musicians recording other music that day, there may have been contracts with other record companies involved - not sure about that. And it was a Guitar Slim record date. Four tracks were recorded and that was evidently the end of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 Either the date or the personnel is incorrect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul secor Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 Tell us more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 Just instinct. No facts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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