Jazz music percentage question.

[Hardbopjazz]

I was having a discussion with a friend who is also a jazz fan. The debate went into this question. What percent of jazz recordings have been lost to the ages? There probably isn't a exact number anyone could give, but so many labels are long gone and their catalogs as well. Looking at musician’s discographies on AMG and other hard copy resources, I would venture to say a good 40%. It’s a real tragedy. Some of these defunct labels have been snatched up by the large companies such as Warner Brothers and Sony, but I doubt what they’ve acquired will ever see the light of day.

Would you say 40% is too high or too low a number?

Edited March 21, 2011 by Hardbopjazz

[Rooster_Ties]

Lost, as in truly lost? (like 80+% of silent movies? - as in 'lost to the sands of time'), or 'lost' in the sense of never to be released ever again?

If it's the latter, than I'd say pretty close to 40%, and maybe more like 50%. Then again, if more and more opens up via downloading (legit), then perhaps not a whole lot worse than 40% currently, and potentially things could open up and bring that down a bit closer to 30% (but that's a pretty big if).

Edited March 21, 2011 by Rooster_Ties

[David Ayers]

I'm not sure we understand your question. Just because a label no longer exists doesn't mean you can't find records it issued. Some things are very hard to find, sure, but that doesn't mean they don't exist anywhere, so how do you quantify that? Usually collectors have to wait to buy some items, even though the item might well be sitting in an archive at the LoC or BL. Those items aren't lost, just infrequently on the market. Of course many recordings never issued commercially are lost to time. Is your question about commercial reissues in digital format of material previously commercially issued on record in the pre-digital period? That sounds like a purely formal question to me, since (a) if it was commercially issued you can eventually find it (and digitise it too if that's your issue) and (2) a lot of people have done just this and there is much out there on the blogosphere.

Just for fun, name any recording you like and let's see if we can source it.

[Big Beat Steve]

I'm not sure we understand your question. Just because a label no longer exists doesn't mean you can't find records it issued. Some things are very hard to find, sure, but that doesn't mean they don't exist anywhere, so how do you quantify that? Usually collectors have to wait to buy some items, even though the item might well be sitting in an archive at the LoC or BL. Those items aren't lost, just infrequently on the market. Of course many recordings never issued commercially are lost to time. Is your question about commercial reissues in digital format of material previously commercially issued on record in the pre-digital period? That sounds like a purely formal question to me, since (a) if it was commercially issued you can eventually find it (and digitise it too if that's your issue) and (2) a lot of people have done just this and there is much out there on the blogosphere.

Just for fun, name any recording you like and let's see if we can source it.

Same question here.

Somehow I am not really sure I understand what the thread starter is after.

"Jazz lost" is probably a matter of perspective anyway. Just imagine the old-time blues recordings of the 20s where there were a good many recordings that purportedly exist but no surviving copies of the records seemed to have been found.

And then ... THIS:

http://www.amazon.com/Stuff-That-Dreams-Are-Made/dp/B000E6UK9Q/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1300713988&sr=8-2

(And similar reissues)

I am not sure, of course, but to me it seems that virtually everything is bound to come to light again one of these days. And with today's media it then of course is all over the place (to those who are looking for it).

So the key question seems to be:

Are we talking about COMMERCIAL recordings or aren't we?

Of course, if you count in transcriptions, acetates, Jerry Newman/Boris Rose type live recordings/airshot dubs (what's the name of that engineer again whose collection came to light recently??) or other private/semi-private recordings (and all these ARE recordings after all, though not commercially issued), then there may be a substantial amount that has indeed been lost forever. But to the (collecting) public at large it never really existed anyway so whatever comes to light is a sort of bonus (and may or may not be counted in) ....

[Hardbopjazz]

Music that will never be heard again now that they no longer are in print. That was my question.

[.:.impossible]

Is there any way to really know?

[Big Beat Steve]

Music that will never be heard again now that they no longer are in print. That was my question.

Please bear with me for insisting about that point once more, but what makes you think that music that is no longer in print will "never be heard again"?

- What makes you think the awareness of those interested in the music is limited to "in-print" items only?

- Isn't there a substantial market of secondhand OOP or even LONG-OOP original releases and aren't these recordings available SOMEHOW (for those in the know anyway, and for the most part it is those in the know who care enough about the music who'd go to lengths in sourcing these OOP items, thereby making them "heard" again)?

- Hasn't it always been so that part of ANYBODY's favorite music (jazz or not) has been OOP at one time and therefore had to be sourced by some other means? But is this a contradiction or an insurmountable problem? Hasn't the fact that part of the music one would like to hear has gone OOP ALWAYS been part of the music searching, buying and listening habits?

In short, I still am not quite sure what your are getting at except trying to come up with a percentage figure of the music in print that might perhaps be used to see if the reissue market is healthier (or worse off) these days than it was at a randomly selected earlier point in time.

So for the time being I'd tend to agree with .:.impossible's statement above.

[sonnymax]

Sorry, but this poll/discussion is a non-starter. Even in cases whether the master tapes have been lost or destroyed, we have the technology to make acceptable reissues from vinyl transfers. You can argue that "big business" will never reissue this title or that, but this is no more than fear and speculation. In recent years we've seen the release of some great jazz that no one knew existed. Who knows what the future will bring, especially as digital downloads reduce the costs of putting out physical product.

The real answer to the question of "music that will never be heard again" is this: every live performance that was never recorded. Many times after a great jazz concert I've reminded myself that I was witness to something very special, something that no one else will ever experience, aside from the musicians, myself, and the other people in the audience. It's what makes jazz so meaningful, those precious moments of improvisation, communication, and exultation. As Eric Dolphy said, When you hear music, after it's over, it's gone, in the air. You can never capture it again.