I'm noticing a difference in digital audio CD-R's

[wolff]

These are the recordable, non-rewritable discs that have 'digital audio' as part of logo and may say "music' on them.

Went through a bunch of Sony discs with no problem. Then I bought some Memorex and am having problems. They playback fine in my various CD players, but when I try to burn a copy from them they do not work flawlessly like the Sony's.

I'm doing everything the same with both brands and they are both the same type of CD-R.

Anyone notice differences like this? Maybe I'm missing something.

Edited January 5, 2004 by wolff

[chris]

"Music" CD-Rs are those for which a licensing fee has been paid... other than that, there is really no difference EXCEPT that there are definitely differences between brands of CD-R media-- some are better than other, some are more reliable, some won't handle high-speed burning as well and will result in more coasters, etc. My preference is Ty-Yuden and Mitsui or Kodak Gold -- lots of bad luck with Verbatim, Maxell, etc.

When in doubt, Japanese made = good, taiwanese made = bad.

[robviti]

Add Klone to the list of preferred cd-r's. Like Taiyo Yuden, they're manufactured by Mitsui, but they're less expensive. The best source for these is American Digital.

[Daniel A]

Like chris said; as standalone CD burners typically burn discs in 1x speed, or perhaps 2x or 4x at a maximum, CDRs designed for use in these recorders may not be optimized for high-speed burning, as opposed to computer CDRs. So when such audio CDRs are used in a computer burner (some of which - like mine - cannot burn slower than, say 8x speed) in speeds like 16x or even faster, the error rate may be higher than if computer CDRs had been used, thus causing extraction from the disc once it's burned to be more problematic.

On the other hand, if you're having problems copying them in a component CD burner it may just be a matter of bad compatibility. Such things happens in the world of CDRs.

[wolff]

I've tried a few data cdr's in my component cd burner and message says 'use audio cdr'. In my case data and 'digital audio' cdr's are not interchangable.

Edited January 11, 2004 by wolff

[Daniel A]

You're right, in a component burner only 'audio' CDRs may be used. I rather meant to say that using 'audio' CDRs in a computer burner may produce suboptimal results. I thought maybe that had been the case, but as you're only using a component burner I can only think of the aforementioned compatibility issue as the reason; some CDRs brands just don't work so good with some burner brands.

[Jim R]

This general subject has been brought up several times (including the old BN board). I've aksed for help a few times myself. Basically, it's a confusing mess. The guys who use computer-based burners will not always understand the problems of the standalone guys, and vice versa. There IS a difference between "data" discs and those designed for audio only (those labeled "music").

I agree with the comment regarding Japanese discs vs Taiwanese. I used to use Memorex blanks (Japanese) with my Harman/Kardon CDR-20 (standalone) burner, and when they switched production to Taiwan, that ended my Memorex purchasing.

I am able to use Imation (music) blanks in the H/K, but only for 4X burns. They won't work at normal speed.

BTW, the only blanks that have worked in my machine at normal speed have had blue dye (the Taiwanese discs do not).

I've heard that Sony blanks will work for me, but I haven't gotten around to trying them yet (haven't quite run out of the Japanese Memorex discs yet).

To sum up, it depends what machine you're using, what speed you want to burn at, and what color dye was used. H/K customer support told me they couldn't help with this problem anymore. So, it seems to be that trial and error is the only way to go.

[rockefeller center]

Subject: [1-13] Do I need "music" blanks to record music?

(2002/10/12)

You only need "music" blanks if you have a "consumer" stand-alone audio CD recorder. If you have a recorder attached to your computer or a "professional" deck then the "music" blanks will work no better or worse than "data" blanks.

See section (7-17) for details.

Subject: [7-17] What's the difference between "data" and "music" blanks?

(2003/01/13)

"Consumer" stand-alone audio CD recorders require special blanks. See section (5-12) for details. There is no difference in quality or composition between "data" blanks and "music" blanks, except for a flag that indicates which one it is. It's likely that "music" blanks are optimized for recording at 1x, since anything you record "live" is by definition recorded at 1x (though some dual-drive systems allow track copying at higher speeds).

You don't have to use "music" blanks to record music on a computer or on a "professional" stand-alone audio CD recorder. Nothing will prevent you from doing so, but there's no advantage to it.

The "music" blanks are more expensive than the "data" blanks because a portion of the price goes to the music industry. The specifics vary from country to country. In the USA, the money goes to the RIAA, which distributes it to artists who have navigated through a complicated application process.

Some manufacturers have on occasion marked low-quality data discs as being "for music", on the assumption that small errors will go unnoticed. Make sure that, if you need the special blanks, you're getting the right thing.

(Technically, there are actually three kinds of blanks: type 1a for CD-ROM or professional audio recording, type 1b for special-purpose applications like PhotoCD, and type 2 for unrestricted use. "Music" blanks are type 2, "data" blanks are type 1a.)

Some disc manufacturers label "music" blanks as "universal use", since they will work on anything.

http://www.cdrfaq.org/

[chris]

The original question (implied) was whether on a COMPUTER burner, not a component burner, they might have better luck with "Music" CD-Rs-- my response was to point out that in terms of media and non-component burners, there is no difference in the media except where it is made and how high the quality is.

It's not that complicated:

On a computer CD Burner, or a standalone that is not a component drive but uses a computer CD burner on the inside, you can use either media, but you are wasting money using the "music" blanks (although, by coincidence, some of them are higher quality just as some regular CD-R media is better than others). I recommended some good brands, as have others. There IS a difference in media.

On a component system you need a "music" CD-R. Period.

[wolff]

I'm pretty sure I've got it now. In some of the explanations they are not clear on hardware used. I always thought I could only use 'audio' discs in my recorder.

The Sony and Samsung 'digital audio' blanks work great in my recorder. I can make unlimitted copies from a master copy from my vinyl. With the Memorex I cannot make copies of the original copy. I better buy a bunch of Sony and Samsung blanks before they are discontinued. I'll give the Mitsui blanks a try at some point.

Thanks for your input!!

[Jim R]

The original question (implied) was whether on a COMPUTER burner, not a component burner, they might have better luck with "Music" CD-Rs

How / where was that implied in the initial post? The fact that he was asking about "music" CDR's would more likely imply that he has a standalone, no? Doesn't matter now I guess, I'm just curious...

[wolff]

Mediasupply.com says this in a FAQ:Answer:There is no difference between a music CD-R and a data CD-R. Both are the

same thing, but some companies market audio discs in order to get a premium.

There was a disc a couple years ago called a "Digital Audio CD-R", that was

meant to burn on HHB and Marantz audio decks, but those have pretty much

gone by the wayside.

I guess this is totally false, unless applied to computers.

[Claude]

Guys, here's something new for you:

Mobile Fidelity Offers Gold CD-R Blanks

Showing that they plan to offer more of their in-studio technology to the public, Mobile Fidelity also announced at CES that they are entering the CD-R blank business. The company's new 24 Karat Gold Ultradisc CD-R Professional Data Storage blanks are said to be "the definitive CD-R" for music and critical data applications. According to the firm, earlier versions of CD-R blanks often suffer from problems like pits melting incorrectly with 1s being read as 0s and uneven pinholes triggering the CD player's error correction system making the audio playback inaccurate.

The new 24 Karat Gold Ultradisc CD-R uses the superior reflectivity and longevity of 99.99% pure 24 Karat Gold, plus a specialized, patented bonding agent that ensures that the Ultradisc CD-R will never oxidize and fail to output information as many commercially available CD-Rs do." The product also features a properietary, patented photosensitive dye which is said to form more precise pits and a 4 level quality control process before it can be sold.

Interestingly the new CD-Rs are designed to work at 1-12X speed versus the higher speeds of newer CD-R blanks. Mobile Fidelity says this is by design since their tests find the most accurate playback occurs with real time burning (1X) and that is the mode they recommend for all serious music and data burning work.

The new product is "tenatively priced" at $29.98 for a 10-pack or $99.98 for a 50-pack. The blanks come in Mobile Fidelity's lift lock case which is said to reduce wear on the disc. It is an interesting area for Mobile Fidelity and suggests that they are continuing to move their technologies out into the market. A wise approach indeed.

Highfidelityreviw news story

Edited January 13, 2004 by Claude

[couw]

And they deliver a gold pen with that so that you can write something legible on it as well?

[chris]

Just scratch something in there with a ballpoint

[riverrat]

Well my new computer will be here any day, and I will finally have a CD burner!!

I've been reviewing this thread before I buy any blanks. I just did a google search on the Mobile Fidelity "Gold" CD-Rs, and came upon this site that sells products by MAM, formerly Mitsui Advanced Media. Some interesting info there that may help explain why they seem to be better.

The website below lists Mitsui "Gold" CD-Rs for $89 per 100, 100 minimum order, and is where I found all this Mitsui propaganda. Not sure if these are the same as Mobile Fidelity's but I'm sure they will be good enough for me.

They say "Mitsui" CD-Rs are made in plant in Colorado Springs. Does anyone know if these are the real deal? Are they the same as the way more spendy Mobile Fidelity CD-Rs?

Diversified Systems Group

"MAM-A CD-R and DVD-R products are consistently recognized as some of the highest quality and most durable recording material available in today’s market. Their products are known for their high strength, remarkable reflectivity, low stress and ideal compatibility. MAM-A is the only CD-R and DVD-R producer that controls all stages of its manufacturing chain. They also hold a worldwide patent on Phthalocyanine dye, used during the recording process to ensure that your information burns accurately.

MAM-A has been an industry leader in the production of high quality CD-R and DVD-R since their inception in 1991. Established in the Chiba district in Japan, Mitsui Chemicals America, Inc. expanded within five years and in 1996 created Mitsui Advanced Media, Inc, whose sole focus is CD-R and DVD-R manufacturing. MAM-A Inc. was founded in March 1996 for the production and sales of recordable compact discs. Its 50,000 sq. ft. plant is located in Colorado Springs, Colorado where the CD-R media is manufactured in a state-of-the-art clean room environment. The MAM GOLD discs uses Mitsui Chemical's patented dye and has a characteristic gold color.

Mitsui Gold CD-R are available in 74 or 80-minute discs and can offer storage life in excess of 300 years. Their Gold Archive-Grade CD-R is the highest quality CD-R that Mitsui offers its customers, providing superior longevity and durability far in excess of the competition. Developed in response to user’s concerns about the longevity of current CD-R products, Mitsui has combined the technology of its patented Phthalocyanine dye with a 24-karat gold reflective layer and strict quality control to produce the highest quality product available. And, as all Mitsui products are manufactured in house, with all materials provided by the company, Mitsui CD-R benefit from a consistency in production and quality control that other CD-R manufacturers cannot equal.

Mitsui Phthalocyanine Dye

Mitsui Media America, Inc., in their quest to produce the highest quality product for their customers, has developed an innovative new dye that allows for the highest quality recording of your personal data or music files. With their worldwide patent on Phthalocyanine, Mitsui is able to provide recording capabilities that no other CD-R and DVD-R manufacturer can offer.

When a CD-R or DVD-R is created, a photosensitive dye layer is incorporated into the product. This layer is then burned by a laser when you “write” to the disc. It is where your data or music is stored, and the cleaner the burn, the higher your accuracy of stored information will be. Phthalocyanine dye burns cleaner than any other dye in the marketplace right now, thus ensuring the best quality available in data recording. Along with this higher quality, Phthalocyanine has the longest lifetime of any photosensitive dye, guaranteeing that your product will be around for at least 100 years (estimated lifetime for Silver CD-R is 100 years; Gold CD-r is 300 years). The dye is also more transparent, contributing to the high reflectivity of Mitsui products.

In a comparison of Phthalocyanine, Cyanine and AZO dye in high heat and humidity conditions, Phthalocyanine dye showed a significantly lower number of errors than the other two products. Phthalocyanine is clearly the industry leader in providing accurate data recording at affordable prices."

[Kevin Bresnahan]

The Sony and Samsung 'digital audio' blanks work great in my recorder. I can make unlimitted copies from a master copy from my vinyl. With the Memorex I cannot make copies of the original copy. I better buy a bunch of Sony and Samsung blanks before they are discontinued. I'll give the Mitsui blanks a try at some point.

I believe I'm reading you correctly and my take on it is that you were lucky that you were to copy those Sony discs in the first place. All audio burners use Serial Copy Management System (SCMS). Any CD-R you burn on your standalone audio deck is supposed to set a bunch of bits that will prevent future dubs off that disc. Try setting the deck for "analog record" mode and see if it works. In analog mode, SCMS is not checked.

Kevin