Department of useless Speculation: What

[AllenLowe]

after talking to Larry Gushee about this for some time, and reading what may be the few reliable accounts of Bolden's sound (in Bill Russell's New Orleans style) and talking to John McCusker (who has a Kid Ory bio in the can) -

I would report that the men to listen to for clues are:

Ernest Coycault (played with Sonny Clay in California)

Wooden Joe Nicholas

Lawence Tocca

the first two are at Gushee's suggestion; the Tocca is my own guess based on what he sounds like on some of the things he did with Emile Barnes. In my opinion Tocca is the most interesting of the N.O. trumpeters, post-Armstrong. Lotsa power.

Edited November 11, 2011 by AllenLowe

[AllenLowe]

Tocca, btw, continues to amaze me - the sense I have of Bolden is of primitive charm, sheer power of sound: check out a little of these samples:

http://www.folkways.si.edu/TrackDetails.aspx?itemid=5209

[danasgoodstuff]

But did he "sound like a girl saying 'yes'"?

[AllenLowe]

she was more demanding then that -

[kenny weir]

Tocca, btw, continues to amaze me - the sense I have of Bolden is of primitive charm, sheer power of sound: check out a little of these samples:

http://www.folkways.si.edu/TrackDetails.aspx?itemid=5209

Courtesy of the American Music thread, a few months ago I bought the Emile Barnes album with Tocca, and before that the Wooden Joe CD, so know where you're coming from.

Allen, a question: Why is Kid Thomas not mentioned in this context, particularly the first recordings AM CD?

BTW, for a definitive answer - THE definitive answer - you'll need to ask WM.

Blow me down - an Australian and Melbourne link to Coyault! Scandal, selaze, Jim Crow and more!

[ATR]

Michael Ondatjee speculated usefully on this IMO in his marvelous novel 'Coming Through Slaughter'. Check it out.

[AllenLowe]

these are all good sources - thanks, Kenny, Tocca just, to my ears, has something extra.

[John L]

Marquis has a very interesting chapter in his biography devoted to exactly this question. He tries to piece together everything that we have from interviews to give a description of what Bolden might have sounded like. Wooden Joe Nicholas was indeed mentioned as somebody who was said to exhibit a direct influence of Bolden. But I recall people saying that Bolden's sound was not as "dirty" as Nicholas, or as King Oliver, for that matter. It was "sweeter," in the direction of Bunk Johnson, but not quite as sweet as Bunk Johnson.

Edited November 12, 2011 by John L

[jeffcrom]

I've always thought that the two trumpeters whose playing probably most resembled Bolden's were Freddie Keppard and Wooden Joe. Joe Nicholas said that he learned to play by listening to Bolden. And several musicians who were around at the time thought Keppard sounded like Bolden. Here's Peter Bocage, from a 1959 interview (this passage in included in Don Marquis' In Search of Buddy Bolden):

Q: Did anybody or does anybody play like Bolden?

A: Keppard, they were most on the same style. The improvisations is always gonna be a little different, no two men alike.

I was listening to Ernest Coycault last night, and he didn't really sound like either of the above players to me - but it was very late and I was tired, so I may spin the CD again today and see what I think.

And there's a CD which I find very interesting and enjoyable, although in the end it might just be a curiosity: Music of the Bolden Era by a group calling themselves The Imperial Serenaders on the Stomp Off label. It's bunch of west coast trad guys (the most well-known is probably drummer John Gill) who researched what the Bolden band played and made educated guesses at how they may have played it. I love the slow tango version of "Panama," with Gill playing the percussion part from the original stock arrangement, with castanets and exactly one bass drum note. Even if you don't take this CD very seriously, it's a fun listen.

Edited November 12, 2011 by jeffcrom

[cih]

I've always thought that the two trumpeters whose playing probably most resembled Bolden's were Freddie Keppard and Wooden Joe. Joe Nicholas said that he learned to play by listening to Bolden. And several musicians who were around at the time thought Keppard sounded like Bolden. Here's Peter Bocage, from a 1959 interview (this passage in included in Don Marquis' In Search of Buddy Bolden):

Q: Did anybody or does anybody play like Bolden?

A: Keppard, they were most on the same style. The improvisations is always gonna be a little different, no two men alike.

That's what I'd read here and there (can't remember where though) - there was a 52 part history of jazz on BBC radio a decade ago where Russell Davies played keppard's 'Salty Dog' and said it had the "ratty" quality associated with Bolden - but judging from some of the above comments, I'm guessing maybe I can take this with a pinch of salt...

[AllenLowe]

for reasons I won't say in a public forum, I would pretty much disregard Marquis. So to me the best testimony is in the Russell book on New Orleans Style, which indicates it was a hard and primitive sound. Keppard I would doubt, based on this. Wooden Joe, yes, and Tocca, IMHO, more than anyone.

[Brownian Motion]

In my opinion Tocca is the most interesting of the N.O. trumpeters, post-Armstrong. Lotsa power.

More interesting than Henry Allen?

My own guess is that if we were somehow able to actually hear Bolden perform, in his prime, we would wonder what all the fuss was about.

[AllenLowe]

I was thinking of the guys who stayed home, and became part of the revival (Kid Rena, Kid Thomas, etc) -

I don't think we would find Bolden's playing any less impressive than others of that time who played in a very basic ragtime

style - Oliver, Landnier, Keppard, Mutt Carey, Natty Dominique, and then later Bunk - with all of these players it was less the notes than the expression, which was not well captured until the electrical era, and then imperfectly (one thing, for example, that is regularly said about Bix is that the recordings don't catch his power).

Edited November 12, 2011 by AllenLowe

[jeffcrom]

for reasons I won't say in a public forum, I would pretty much disregard Marquis. So to me the best testimony is in the Russell book on New Orleans Style, which indicates it was a hard and primitive sound. Keppard I would doubt, based on this. Wooden Joe, yes, and Tocca, IMHO, more than anyone.

Well, we disagree on the merits of the Marquis book, but I don't see how you can totally discount the testimony of Peter Bocage, who heard both Bolden and Keppard. I've read other accounts of musicians comparing Keppard to Bolden, but I'm too lazy to track them down right now. And yes, Keppard was undoubtedly a more sophisticated musician than Bolden, but when I hear FK's "Stockyard Strut," with its hard, clipped phrases, and the basic blues phrases of "Salty Dog," it's easy to imagine Buddy Bolden sounding something like that.

Of course, we should keep in mind your title for this thread. We'll never really know, unless I find that cylinder recording....

[AllenLowe]

well, the question is whether we can believe in the transcribed accuracy of anyone Marquis quotes; there's a rash of these guys in the jazz field (see also John Lincoln Collier and Al Rose). The problems of basic accuracy are....sobering.****

****pun intended.

Edited November 13, 2011 by AllenLowe

[jeffcrom]

well, the question is whether we can believe in the transcribed accuracy of anyone Marquis quotes; there's a rash of these guys in the jazz field (see also John Lincoln Collier and Al Rose). The problems of basic accuracy are....sobering.****

****pun intended.

To imply that Marquis flubs the transcription of the Bocage interview so badly as to change the meaning doesn't seem credible at all to me.

[John L]

I would also be interested in hearing more specifically what problems have been identified with the Marquis book. I've been assuming that book to be the most objective account of Bolden based on existing evidence.

Peter Bocage talked to our own Chris Albertson about Bolden, and in a rather negative light, as I recall. He thought Bunk Johnson was better. Maybe Chris himself can add a few words.

[AllenLowe]

not that he flubs it, Jeff. Maybe invents it is more accurate. As I said, I can't get into this any further, except to say that researchers whom I trust and who know N.O. well find the book to be largely a work of the imagination. Like with Howard Reich who, in his own book on Morton, cites a visit to Bill Russel's house, but who turns out to be citing the wrong place.

Edited November 13, 2011 by AllenLowe

[jeffcrom]

not that he flubs it, Jeff. Maybe invents it is more accurate. As I said, I can't get into this any further, except to say that researchers whom I trust and who know N.O. well find the book to be largely a work of the imagination. Like with Howard Reich who, in his own book on Morton, cites a visit to Bill Russel's house, but who turns out to be citing the wrong place.

Allen, I love you like a brother (I've got your new CD on right now), but the idea that In Search of Buddy Bolden is fabricated is ridiculous, and doesn't hold up to the scrutiny of opening the book for five minutes. Everything - everything - is properly cited. The are a few sources which might be hard for another party to verify, (like Marquis' interviews with people who heard Bolden play), but most of the writing is based on public records, newspaper articles, and material in the Hogan Jazz Archive - all easily verifiable. (You've got me all fired up to listen to that Bocage interview the next time I'm New Orleans.)

In fact, the book is remarkable for its lack of speculation, rumor, or conjecture. If a story can't be verified, Marquis discounts it. And frankly, there's nothing in the book worthy of fabrication - the only really dramatic story in the book is that of Bolden's breakdown, and, again, Marquis bases his account on public records and articles in the New Orleans Item and Picayune - and those articles are photographed and included.

I don't know what your friend (whose work I highly respect, too) told you - whether it was something general or if he cited specific instances of Marquis making stuff up. If it was the latter, I'd like to see the evidence. If he was talking about other writings by Marquis that are substandard, I can't speak to that, since I haven't read anything else he has written (except for Finding Buddy Bolden, an innocuous little booklet which is basically the journal of his journey into Bolden-land). And I don't know anything about Marquis' personal problems or character flaws, but they don't seem to have affected his work in this book.

The detailed research that went into this book is obvious, and I'll take that over a third-hand account which doesn't seem credible to me at all. Unless I see actual evidence to the contrary, I will continue to consider In Search of Buddy Bolden to be a model of jazz research, worthy to stand with Gushee's Pioneers of Jazz.

Edited to add: But you've got me reading the book again, so thank you for that.

Edited November 14, 2011 by jeffcrom

[medjuck]

A little off topic: anyone interested in Bolden should read Michael Ondaatje's prose-poem "Coming Through Slaughter". Michael once told me that he did very little research so it's probably full of historical inaccuracies but as Paul Krasner used to say: "it's cosmically true."

Edited November 14, 2011 by medjuck

[papsrus]

Interesting discussion. Allen and Jeff, you have got me interested in Marquis' book. Thanks.

[jeffcrom]

I wanted to correct myself a little here. After rereading further into Marquis' book, I'm reminded that he does indeed speculate on some aspects of the Bolden story, but when he does, it's clearly presented as speculation, not fact, and it's never without evidence. For instance, in chapter two, Marquis believes it's likely that, as a young boy, Bolden witnessed a parade featuring the Pickwick and Excelsior Brass Bands. Why does he think this? Because the very detailed parade route, which Marquis quotes in full, was published in the New Orleans Louisianan, the city's black newspaper. The route indicates that the parade passed either directly in front of the Boldens' house or just a few blocks away - they moved around this time and it's not clear exactly when. No, it's not a provable fact that Bolden heard the Pickwick and the Excelsior at this parade, but you can bet that I would have been there if I had been a little kid that close to a brass band parade.

And in chapter three, Marquis discusses Bolden's schooling. He wasn't able to find any records of where Bolden attended elementary school, but after examining the available evidence, he comes out in favor of Fisk School for Boys, in Bolden's neighborhood. Marquis is careful to point out that the early records of the school had not been preserved, so "it is impossible to definitely verify Bolden's attendance there." But he presents what evidence there is, and it's good enough that, if it matters where Buddy Bolden went to elementary school, I would agree that it was probably at Fisk.

Sorry if I'm beating a dead horse here. But Allen has spurred me to defend what I think is one of the most well-researched books in the literature of jazz.

And yes, Coming Through Slaughter is excellent as literature - it doesn't claim to be history.

Edited November 14, 2011 by jeffcrom

[AllenLowe]

will have to read that poem -

I have a knack for annoying the world, so it's ok - I will make a few calls this week; suffice to say that after speaking with 2 people that I trust I cannot look at Marquis anymore without wondering about everything in it -

Jeff - I will be in contact. Unless I turn out to be wrong on this, in which case I deny everything. Even if, as Lenny Bruce used to say, you got pictures (and thank goodness for the delete button here; I hit that and YOU look like the crazy one instead of me; I mean, arguing with yourself...).

Edited November 14, 2011 by AllenLowe

[jeffcrom]

YOU look like the crazy one instead of me; I mean, arguing with yourself...).

Wouldn't be the first time. Sometimes that Jeff guy drives me crazy.

[jeffcrom]

Jeffery continues to argue with himself....

Okay, I finished rereading In Search of Buddy Bolden tonight. This makes at least the third time I've read it - probably the fourth. Overall, I think it's an impressive piece of work, but I did find one section that could open Marquis to criticism. Chapter Nine, "Demise as a Musician," has Marquis explaining the internal conflicts Bolden struggled with toward the end of his playing career in 1906. In contrast to most of the material in the book, he gives no sources for his seeming understanding of the mental state of a man who died 77 years before the book was published.

This is the weakest part of the book, but Marquis only devotes a few paragraphs to this speculation. I found it kind of annoying, but ultimately not that important, given the strength of the rest of the book. I don't know if this is what Allen's friend was talking about, but I wanted to point out what I consider a weakness in an otherwise excellent piece of work.