Evan Parker and Roscoe Mitchell

[David Ayers]

Well, I got around to Evan Parker's Boustrophedon, which is one of the two days recorded with the Transatlantic Art Ensemble. This group combined regular collaborators of Parker and of Roscoe Mitchell, with Mitchell leading one session Composition/Improvisation Nos 1, 2 and 3 and Parker leading the other.

I hadn't been overwhelmed by the Mitchell disk - perhaps others disagree - and so I hadn't rushed to hear the Parker-led session. I got to it now and I am pleasantly surprised. The format, which simply pairs soloists from each player's squad, seems mechanical at first, but in fact the music (which seems to have a large compositional element) has a lovely lightness about it and is rather compelling, though building up to a suitably intense climax in the section involving Parker and Mitchell as soloists. Anyone else heard this?

[CraigP]

I like Parker's Electro-Acoustic Ensemble releases, but I haven't heard this. I thought it might be a mess with so many people involved.

[Alexander Hawkins]

Funny - I was talking about these to a friend only last night! I really like both...as you say, quite different from one another. I also agree - Evan's concept is really effective here. Part of what I like about these records is that it's taking me several goes to 'figure them out' - they're fascinating in that respect too.

[Face of the Bass]

ECM poisons everything it touches. Okay, that's not quite true but they do have a habit of making great players sound a little bit boring sometimes.

[JETman]

ECM poisons everything it touches. Okay, that's not quite true but they do have a habit of making great players sound a little bit boring sometimes.

Eicher does NOT twist great players' arms so that they record music they do NOT want to record. I spoke to Abercrombie about this very subject about a month ago. He lives in my neck of the woods, and I run into him occasionally. Get over the ECM bashing already. It is old and extremely close-minded.

[paul secor]

ECM poisons everything it touches. Okay, that's not quite true but they do have a habit of making great players sound a little bit boring sometimes.

Eicher does NOT twist great players' arms so that they record music they do NOT want to record. I spoke to Abercrombie about this very subject about a month ago. He lives in my neck of the woods, and I run into him occasionally. Get over the ECM bashing already. It is old and extremely close-minded.

Good to know that we have received THE WORD.

[Face of the Bass]

ECM poisons everything it touches. Okay, that's not quite true but they do have a habit of making great players sound a little bit boring sometimes.

Eicher does NOT twist great players' arms so that they record music they do NOT want to record. I spoke to Abercrombie about this very subject about a month ago. He lives in my neck of the woods, and I run into him occasionally. Get over the ECM bashing already. It is old and extremely close-minded.

Close minded? Listen to the difference between Marilyn Crispell on ECM versus Marilyn Crispell on other labels and for other projects. It's staggering.

[David Ayers]

I guess I would just like to talk about the music, not the label.

Do people really see the likes of Roscoe and Evan as sell-outs for working with ECM? Hmm.

[JETman]

ECM poisons everything it touches. Okay, that's not quite true but they do have a habit of making great players sound a little bit boring sometimes.

Eicher does NOT twist great players' arms so that they record music they do NOT want to record. I spoke to Abercrombie about this very subject about a month ago. He lives in my neck of the woods, and I run into him occasionally. Get over the ECM bashing already. It is old and extremely close-minded.

Good to know that we have received THE WORD.

Once you rise above the need to place labels on music, you'll realize that no other record label out there has lasted as long as ECM has on the international stage with as much success.

And remember, great players do not always record great albums.

ECM poisons everything it touches. Okay, that's not quite true but they do have a habit of making great players sound a little bit boring sometimes.

Eicher does NOT twist great players' arms so that they record music they do NOT want to record. I spoke to Abercrombie about this very subject about a month ago. He lives in my neck of the woods, and I run into him occasionally. Get over the ECM bashing already. It is old and extremely close-minded.

Close minded? Listen to the difference between Marilyn Crispell on ECM versus Marilyn Crispell on other labels and for other projects. It's staggering.

Is that really the best that you can do?

[jeffcrom]

I guess I would just like to talk about the music, not the label.

Do people really see the likes of Roscoe and Evan as sell-outs for working with ECM? Hmm.

Not me.

Back to the original question - I have both of these CDs, and neither is my favorite work by these artists. But they are not quite like anything else these two guys have done, and they've really grown on me. Every time I play one I like it better than the last time I heard it. Neither one is "obvious" music, and they take some time to digest, at least for me.

[Face of the Bass]

ECM poisons everything it touches. Okay, that's not quite true but they do have a habit of making great players sound a little bit boring sometimes.

Eicher does NOT twist great players' arms so that they record music they do NOT want to record. I spoke to Abercrombie about this very subject about a month ago. He lives in my neck of the woods, and I run into him occasionally. Get over the ECM bashing already. It is old and extremely close-minded.

Good to know that we have received THE WORD.

Once you rise above the need to place labels on music, you'll realize that no other record label out there has lasted as long as ECM has on the international stage with as much success.

And remember, great players do not always record great albums.

ECM poisons everything it touches. Okay, that's not quite true but they do have a habit of making great players sound a little bit boring sometimes.

Eicher does NOT twist great players' arms so that they record music they do NOT want to record. I spoke to Abercrombie about this very subject about a month ago. He lives in my neck of the woods, and I run into him occasionally. Get over the ECM bashing already. It is old and extremely close-minded.

Close minded? Listen to the difference between Marilyn Crispell on ECM versus Marilyn Crispell on other labels and for other projects. It's staggering.

Is that really the best that you can do?

No, where do you get the idea that this is the best I can do? Do all your posts reflect your best effort, all the time? I'm not writing a doctoral thesis here. I just increasingly see ECM as a great missed opportunity. Here you have this label that has great presence, great distribution, and great musicians recording for it, but the aesthetic remains stuck in neutral and has been for some time. There are some great albums that come along on ECM now and again. But, IMO, the label could do much better, and it could start by not trying to give every recording the same polished sheen, with the same moody, existentialist image on the cover. They cover the Nordic jazz scene quite well, but sometimes it seems like they are trying to extend that aesthetic to all the music they document. As for Crispell, having been very familiar with her ECM output of the last decade or so, I was really struck the other week to hear her in a different context, playing for the Joelle Leandre Project. She played with much more fire and with a much greater sense of risk-taking, more like the work she did in the 1980s with Braxton and on Leo.

[David Ayers]

Crispell very often talks about her changed style in interviews -

http://experimentalfictionpoetry.blogspot.com/2009/01/marilyn-crispell-jazz-pianist.html and http://www.jazzweekly.com/interviews/mcrispell.htm

[GregK]

ECM poisons everything it touches. Okay, that's not quite true but they do have a habit of making great players sound a little bit boring sometimes.

Eicher does NOT twist great players' arms so that they record music they do NOT want to record. I spoke to Abercrombie about this very subject about a month ago. He lives in my neck of the woods, and I run into him occasionally. Get over the ECM bashing already. It is old and extremely close-minded.

I agree with you. But maybe that's because I very much like the ECM sound.

Anyway, I've only listened to the Parker a few times, and nothing stuck. The Roscoe I've listened to more times, and I do like it but it is very dense. I think these are records that need to be listened to intently many times over, which I have not been able to do yet.

[Jazzis]

ECM poisons everything it touches. Okay, that's not quite true but they do have a habit of making great players sound a little bit boring sometimes.

I've heard a lot of "strange" statements in my life, but this one is truly bizarre...?

As already mentioned in this thread and of course everywhere else, ECM's contribution to contemporary Jazz aesthetic, the development of the Jazz Art Form, the individual admancement of hundreds of Jazz Artists and many, many other virtues attributed to ECM and its owner are beyond discussion.

I have witnessed the birth of the label from day one, followed it closely for over 40 years now, both on a personal and professional level and I must say that although many independent Jazz labels are crucially important, none of them comes close to ECM on any level.

Of course I can understand that some American Jazz fans have trouble admitting that a non-American Jazz activity could overshadow everything done by American Jazz, but hey, that is a fact....

[A Lark Ascending]

ECM generally travels a different path to the American jazz tradition. Best to see it as 'different' rather than 'poisoning' the holy well. I can see why its approach might not appeal to many jazz fans because its recordings can frequently leave out elements that are normally considered central.

I really like Boustrophedon, especially - John Rangecroft's clarinet really grabbed me for some reason. In fact I think I'll play it in a while.

[Jazzis]

ECM generally travels a different path to the American jazz tradition. Best to see it as 'different' rather than 'poisoning' the holy well. I can see why its approach might not appeal to many jazz fans because its recordings can frequently leave out elements that are normally considered central.

I really like Boustrophedon, especially - John Rangecroft's clarinet really grabbed me for some reason. In fact I think I'll play it in a while.

I love the British political correctness....

The "different path" approach is fine as long as one understands that the American Jazz tradition more or less contributed everything it had to offer by the end end of the 1960s and then it was incorporated into the European Jazz tradition, which took it into the future.

[A Lark Ascending]

Who's next? The French?

[Jazzis]

Who's next? The French?

This is a bit cryptic, but actually it was the British, who revolutionized Jazz in the late 1960s / early 1970s, the rest of the Continent followed, including the French, the Germans, the Dutch and the entire Eastern Europe behind the curtain (Iron or otherwise).

[paul secor]

ECM poisons everything it touches. Okay, that's not quite true but they do have a habit of making great players sound a little bit boring sometimes.

I've heard a lot of "strange" statements in my life, but this one is truly bizarre...?

As already mentioned in this thread and of course everywhere else, ECM's contribution to contemporary Jazz aesthetic, the development of the Jazz Art Form, the individual admancement of hundreds of Jazz Artists and many, many other virtues attributed to ECM and its owner are beyond discussion.

I have witnessed the birth of the label from day one, followed it closely for over 40 years now, both on a personal and professional level and I must say that although many independent Jazz labels are crucially important, none of them comes close to ECM on any level.

Of course I can understand that some American Jazz fans have trouble admitting that a non-American Jazz activity could overshadow everything done by American Jazz, but hey, that is a fact....

I could and will say that I find your comments "bizarre" - and no "?" added to my comment.

Guess we inhabit completely different worlds.

[Jazzis]

ECM poisons everything it touches. Okay, that's not quite true but they do have a habit of making great players sound a little bit boring sometimes.

I've heard a lot of "strange" statements in my life, but this one is truly bizarre...?

As already mentioned in this thread and of course everywhere else, ECM's contribution to contemporary Jazz aesthetic, the development of the Jazz Art Form, the individual admancement of hundreds of Jazz Artists and many, many other virtues attributed to ECM and its owner are beyond discussion.

I have witnessed the birth of the label from day one, followed it closely for over 40 years now, both on a personal and professional level and I must say that although many independent Jazz labels are crucially important, none of them comes close to ECM on any level.

Of course I can understand that some American Jazz fans have trouble admitting that a non-American Jazz activity could overshadow everything done by American Jazz, but hey, that is a fact....

I could and will say that I find your comments "bizarre" - and no "?" added to my comment.

Guess we inhabit completely different worlds.

I guess that is one way to put it...

[A Lark Ascending]

Who's next? The French?

This is a bit cryptic, but actually it was the British, who revolutionized Jazz in the late 1960s / early 1970s, the rest of the Continent followed, including the French, the Germans, the Dutch and the entire Eastern Europe behind the curtain (Iron or otherwise).

Forged in the white heat of Harold Wilson's technological revolution, no doubt!

Edited January 27, 2012 by A Lark Ascending

[mjazzg]

ECM poisons everything it touches. Okay, that's not quite true but they do have a habit of making great players sound a little bit boring sometimes.

Eicher does NOT twist great players' arms so that they record music they do NOT want to record. I spoke to Abercrombie about this very subject about a month ago. He lives in my neck of the woods, and I run into him occasionally. Get over the ECM bashing already. It is old and extremely close-minded.

Close minded? Listen to the difference between Marilyn Crispell on ECM versus Marilyn Crispell on other labels and for other projects. It's staggering.

Do you honestly believe that an artist of Crispell's stature is in someway manipulated to produce work she'd rather not so it can be released on ECM? I hope not ,because that shows very little respect indeed for an artist which your other statements suggest you admire. Maybe she wants to record in the style she does for ECM? is that a possibility beyond your view? I, for one appreciate her recordings for ECM and other labels.

As for the Parker/Mitchell - I've struggled to really enjoy the Mitchell (which has a line-up that i could take to a desert island) only because i find the first piece really doesn't stimulate me and puts a 'drag' on the rest of the album (I'm sure this is discussed on another thread elswhere). Maybe i should start at track two.

The Parker I haven't done justice to, listened a couple of times and shelved it which suggests it didn't grab me straight off. I've noted the comments that it's a recording that reveals itself over several listens so will use this thread as aspur to revisit.

Anyone got an antidote for Eicher's poison? It'd save me a lot of money.....

[A Lark Ascending]

Anyone got an antidote for Eicher's poison? It'd save me a lot of money.....

Hair of the dog.

[mjazzg]

Who's next? The French?

This is a bit cryptic, but actually it was the British, who revolutionized Jazz in the late 1960s / early 1970s, the rest of the Continent followed, including the French, the Germans, the Dutch and the entire Eastern Europe behind the curtain (Iron or otherwise).

Forged in the white heat of Harold Wilson's technological revolution, no doubt!

Sure it wasn't forged in Harold Wilson's mac?

[A Lark Ascending]

Who's next? The French?

This is a bit cryptic, but actually it was the British, who revolutionized Jazz in the late 1960s / early 1970s, the rest of the Continent followed, including the French, the Germans, the Dutch and the entire Eastern Europe behind the curtain (Iron or otherwise).

Forged in the white heat of Harold Wilson's technological revolution, no doubt!

Sure it wasn't forged in Harold Wilson's mac?

Wasn't Mac the end of the 50s?