Gene Quill

[Larry Kart]

Doing the same thing...playing brilliantly on every recording...gee, that's terrible.

Would that he did. That he doesn't (IMO) is unfortunate.

Again, I would ask any admirer of latter-day Woods to listen to the two very good (though not the best I've ever heard) samples of his early work ("Stockholm Sweetnin" and "Toos Bloos") that I posted on the Woods thread and tell me that they can't hear a difference in quality as well as in style between them and his typical later work. If you can't hear a difference of any sort, then I think we can't talk.

[fasstrack]

Pt. 2. ...is somewhat in check b/c the built-in editor all the real greats have seemed to suggest that maybe it wasn't as appropriate on standards and ballads, esp. W/strings. You sort of don't curtail the natural or inventive impulse, but play according to the style or song. If you're that rara avis, a real innovator, you will can actually improve what was there while making it sound like it's supposed to be that way. But w/a lesser (but still very gifted) player to me it can sound like it doesn't quite fit or is forced. Just my opinion, no more, no less.

[fasstrack]

Larry, many would argue that everyone is, if not better-purer, early in the game. It's that first wind that is exciting. People change, some ripen, others get corrupted. It's all in the game. But fresh talent in bloom is always special to observe.

[Larry Kart]

Larry, many would argue that everyone is, if not better-purer, early in the game. It's that first wind that is exciting. People change, some ripen, others get corrupted. It's all in the game. But fresh talent in bloom is always special to observe.

One who has gotten better and better with age IMO, up until the point where physical factors come into play at times (but only at times), is Von Freeman.

[fasstrack]

I think Tom Harrell really matured, and through many physical/chops maladies. He more and more resisted the encyclopedic knowledge of trumpet players and things under his fingers he would summon when younger. He could be sparse and lyrical then too, but as physical problems arose so did wisdom and restraint. Composing is another factor. It forces one to take a cold, analytical look at one's ideas and-esp. in Western music-is about development. I have Tom's manuscripts dating from the early '70s. Impressive and daring.

[Larry Kart]

I think Tom Harrell really matured, and through many physical/chops maladies. He more and more resisted the encyclopedic knowledge of trumpet players and things under his fingers he would summon when younger. He could be sparse and lyrical then too, but as physical problems arose so did wisdom and restraint. Composing is another factor. It forces one to take a cold, analytical look at one's ideas and-esp. in Western music-is about development. I have Tom's manuscripts dating from the early '70s. Impressive and daring.

Agree about Harrell.

Certainly mature Kenny Dorham was leaps and bounds better than young Kenny, but then the trumpet is such an unforgiving instrument if you're trying to playing in a style that demands sorts of technical mastery that the young Dorham did not possess. In his maturity, Dorham, among other things, figured out some different ways to play that played to his strengths.

[fasstrack]

I think Tom Harrell really matured, and through many physical/chops maladies. He more and more resisted the encyclopedic knowledge of trumpet players and things under his fingers he would summon when younger. He could be sparse and lyrical then too, but as physical problems arose so did wisdom and restraint. Composing is another factor. It forces one to take a cold, analytical look at one's ideas and-esp. in Western music-is about development. I have Tom's manuscripts dating from the early '70s. Impressive and daring.

Agree about Harrell.

Certainly mature Kenny Dorham was leaps and bounds better than young Kenny (but then the trumpet is such an unforgiving instrument if you're trying to playing in a style that demands sorts of technical mastery that the young Dorham did not possess. In his maturity, Dorham, among other things, figured out some different ways to play that played to his strengths.

Some people, Barry Harris foremost among them, think people who played with Charlie Parker played their best with him. I think he specifically meant Miles Davis. A genius on Parker's level will bring out capabilities in people no one else could---but they have to be there in the first place. So Miles and Kenny both reached peaks, many peaks, on their own--but belong in a special category of very privileged players. It really blows my mind what Kenny especially did in that band that's preserved on the club airshots, but especially the Paris concerts. And I think everyone agrees Miles became one of the all-time great players, bandleaders, and thinkers.

[AllenLowe]

1) late Chet Baker - before he started declining - was amazing - late 1970s, maybe; he was on fire and still incredibly lyrical.

2) Barry and I had a long talk about the Bird thing, on a 2 hour car ride, maybe 1979 or so. We were talking about players from the bebop era who went through terrible things afterwards. His thought, and I agree with him, was that they were so dependent upon Bird as a center of energy and ideas that, when he died, they were lost. They didn't know what to do, and wandered, both literally and figuratively. Al Haig was a good example of this. Even Davey may have felt a bit disoriented by his death, and I even have the same sense from some things Triglia told me, that he felt his mentor was gone.

Edited June 15, 2012 by AllenLowe

[paul secor]

Roscoe Mitchell and Cecil Taylor are two musicians whose music opened up in a good way as they got older. I love their early playing, but love their later playing even more.

[flat5]

I think we need another thread for where this topic has gone.

I don't like Vic Dickenson's soloing in the 1940s with Lester Young but really like his playing in the 1950s.

Ruby Braff improved with age (experience).

[fasstrack]

Barry still believes this, and strongly. We talked about it onlw weeks ago. He played with Parker as a teen a few times-I did not, being a year old when he died. Absorbing a great musician via recordings, books, legend is not the same as being swept up and swallowed up by a force so powerful. So my words literally are presumptuous (sp ) when I say I disagree with my teacher and a great man. I further heard an interview from 1975 he did w/Phil Schaap (on the subject of Coleman Hawkins) where he said 'musicians are followers'. I find that comment unfortunate though true. But not only does it not have to be, the few who didn't get caught up in the maelstrom to the point of losing their identities had strong ones to begin with, Miles for one. He became a great force by NOT getting swallowed-and knowing he was a different animal altogether, a creature of sound, space, and brevity. Sonny Sollins took what made sense but had ideas of his own. A few alto players stuck to their guns. Art Pepper got into a brawl w/..Joe Maini, who called him a 'faggot' and endeavored to kick his ass for turning down the Kool Aid and not copying. That's the way it was then, and it teaches us as much about people, hero-worship,and the herd mentality as the power and greatness of Charlie Parker.

Edited June 16, 2012 by fasstrack

[fasstrack]

I think we need another thread for where this topic has gone.

I don't like Vic Dickenson's soloing in the 1940s with Lester Young but really like his playing in the 1950s.

Ruby Braff improved with age (experience).

I loved Vic Dickenson on those Aladdin records with Pres. Glad he got the gig and exposure. He sounded like no one else.