AllenLowe Posted April 25, 2012 Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 been listening all morning to the Fresh Sound/ Gene Quill The Tiger: Portrait of a Great Alto Player. all I can say is that I forgot how amazing a player he was. A genius? I don't know, but rhythmically and harmonically one of the most brilliant alto players of that generation (or any other, actually) - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted April 25, 2012 Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 Don't miss the "Three Bones and a Quill" album. The bones (Jimmy Cleveland, Jim Dahl, and Frank Rehak) and Quill were all members of Johnny Richards orchestra, and the togetherness shows. Haven't sat down and studied this, but on the whole I like Quill best when he was apart from Phil Woods; together, things seemed to get a bit too "athletic" for my tastes for both of them, though the time of their partnership was still before Woods came to be rather artificially "hot" IMO. But we've been down that road before; sorry for mentioning it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted April 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 that's ok, I do not like Woods. If you can get the above named Fresh Sound, it's got several different combinations of groups, and includes some of the best Dick Katz on record (Dick sometimes got stuck in his 'John Lewis' mode, but he really sparkles here). But Quill is on fire and incredibly complex in his playing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.A.W. Posted April 25, 2012 Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 (edited) For those who aren't familiar with the Fresh Sound CD Allen is referring to, it is a collection of tracks from various albums. Also released by Fresh Sound, the album Larry is referring to: Three Bones and a Quill and two albums with the dreaded Phil Woods: Phil and Quill Altology-Complete Quintet and Sextet Sessions 1956-1957 Edited April 25, 2012 by J.A.W. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted April 25, 2012 Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 For those who aren't familiar with the Fresh Sound CD Allen is referring to, it is a collection of tracks from various albums. Also released by Fresh Sound, the album Larry is referring to: Three Bones and a Quill and two albums with the dreaded Phil Woods: Phil and Quill Altology-Complete Quintet and Sextet Sessions 1956-1957 Just to be clear, I'm a big Phil Woods fan up to a point (probably his sideman appearance on Red Garland's "Sugan" from, I think, 1957), but after that not much at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JETman Posted April 25, 2012 Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 For those who aren't familiar with the Fresh Sound CD Allen is referring to, it is a collection of tracks from various albums. Also released by Fresh Sound, the album Larry is referring to: Three Bones and a Quill and two albums with the dreaded Phil Woods: Phil and Quill Altology-Complete Quintet and Sextet Sessions 1956-1957 Just to be clear, I'm a big Phil Woods fan up to a point (probably his sideman appearance on Red Garland's "Sugan" from, I think, 1957), but after that not much at all. In essence, you've just negated 50+ years of his output. I'm not sure he is deserving of such an honor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.A.W. Posted April 25, 2012 Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 (edited) Just to be clear, I'm a big Phil Woods fan up to a point (probably his sideman appearance on Red Garland's "Sugan" from, I think, 1957), but after that not much at all. According to the Bruyninckx discography Sugan (July 19, 1957) was a Phil Woods date; Ruppli's Prestige discography lists Garland as co-leader. 1957 was the turning point for me too as far as Woods is concerned. His Epic date Warm Woods from that year is the last one I really like. Edited April 25, 2012 by J.A.W. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted April 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 in the 50s Woods still had a wonderful edge, I know what Larry means (I think). Later he became a bit machine-like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted April 25, 2012 Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 Just to be clear, I'm a big Phil Woods fan up to a point (probably his sideman appearance on Red Garland's "Sugan" from, I think, 1957), but after that not much at all. According to the Bruyninckx discography Sugan (July 19, 1957) was a Phil Woods date; Ruppli's Prestige discography lists Garland as co-leader. FWIW, the album cover says "Phil Woods with Red Garland," both names in the same size type. I'd say they were co-leaders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted April 25, 2012 Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 I have no problem with Woods, really, though perhaps I'm easy... don't know Quill's work super well, so I'll have to check out these compilations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted April 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 Quill is, to my ears, the best altoist of the '50s after Schildkraut and McClean. Now, the rumor has been that he used a tenor reed on an alto mouthpiece, and I'm certain this is true, on some of the recordings. On the collection I mentioned he appears to be using the tenor reed on about half the cuts (with a Link rubber); it gives him a darker, bigger sound, almost a McLean-like sourness (though not quite). too bad he was such a falling-down drunk and junkie. I tried to interview him some time in the '80s, called his house, He had just gotten out of the hospital after being found laying in the gutter (he'd hit his head on a sidewalk), He was very nice, but he never really came out of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted April 25, 2012 Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 I'm mostly ok with Woods until right after he came back from Europe. Quill's always been ok with me, although there's a certain smartassy certitude to both his and Woods' playing that I usually can't ignore, probably at least partially the result of ruling the NYC studios like they did during that time, not that they shouldn't have, praobably also just a natural part of who they were in the first place, which probably led to the ruling the NYC studios like they did during that time. But excellence can get inbred-ishly self-referential at times too, and sometimes that's what I hear more than I do something from-the-gut-ty. But not always, and even then, hey, it's good to be good, ya' know? too bad he was such a falling-down drunk and junkie. I tried to interview him some time in the '80s, called his house, He had just gotten out of the hospital after being found laying in the gutter (he'd hit his head on a sidewalk), He was very nice, but he never really came out of it. iirc, the press at the time was that he had gotten violently mugged(?) Not so? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted April 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 huh....it may have been a combo - thrown down. But my memory may be playing tricks, because I remember they said he was found lying face-down on the sidewalk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted April 25, 2012 Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 I could understand a sanitized version..I mean, who wants to be known as the guy who was so fucked up he fell down and was brain-damaged for the rest of his life? Then again, I wasn't there, so...who knows for sure? But yeah, people get fucked up and fall down and bad things happen sometime. Happened to Hilton Ruiz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fasstrack Posted April 26, 2012 Report Share Posted April 26, 2012 been listening all morning to the Fresh Sound/ Gene Quill The Tiger: Portrait of a Great Alto Player. all I can say is that I forgot how amazing a player he was. A genius? I don't know, but rhythmically and harmonically one of the most brilliant alto players of that generation (or any other, actually) - You know the story about someone heckling Quill at work from his table?: 'Hey Quill. All you do is try to play like Charlie Parker. Quill unstrapped his horn and handed it over: 'Here. Play like Charlie Parker'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted April 26, 2012 Report Share Posted April 26, 2012 in the 50s Woods still had a wonderful edge, I know what Larry means (I think). Later he became a bit machine-like. It wasn't Woods' "edge" that drew to his playing up to 1957 or so; in fact, it's the IMO often put-on hot "edge" of his later work that gave me the willies. Rather, it was the shapeliness and lucidity of his lines, the way he could conjure up almost literal shapes and play them off against each other, that I admired in his early work. That can be heard in a whole lot of Woods' recordings as a leader and a sideman from back then. Two of my favorites for him are Quincy Jones' "This Is How I Feel About Jazz" and Jon Eardley's "Pot Pie," but he was playing at a consistently high level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted April 26, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 26, 2012 (edited) but his tone was different in those days, too - edge, not growl, I think - just a little more intense. You felt like he meant it. The Phil Woods of today sounds to me like a synth. There's an old Xanadu LP that's got some live stuff, I think, with Woods, that was a revelation to me. I think this is it: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CDEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.xanadurecords.com%2Fpdfs%2Finternationaljamsessions.pdf&ei=PpqYT8f5C-rF0QGTheyJBw&usg=AFQjCNHPMKojqO9ojPI1vx9Q5rnnEiH5Yg&sig2=L2GtYd_blqHx2w2at_NIrw Edited April 26, 2012 by AllenLowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted April 26, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 26, 2012 listen to his solo on Yardbird Suite on that (it's on Spotify) - brilliant stuff, shapes, exactly - but it's edgy, sounds like he's finding things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fasstrack Posted April 26, 2012 Report Share Posted April 26, 2012 Phil hit a peak around '61-the first of many. Joe Morello, Buddy Rich, Q, and scads of other dates. Not sure when Further Definitions was made. 57 was a hell of a year. Birdland Allstars tour and Monk at Town Hall (later the 8tet), in the 60s the stuff w/Sergio Mendes. Then a Romanticism set in w/Michel Legrand that was emotional-some would say overbearing-I find it lush and from the guts and heart. But 57-61 was just about magical w/swinging, joyful, and insouciant (sp) solos that always found a bend in the road. Plus all the lead he played. What else you gonna do w/that sound?Phil hit a peak around '61-the first of many. Joe Morello, Buddy Rich, Q, and scads of other dates. Not sure when Further Definitions was made. 57 was a hell of a year. Birdland Allstars tour and Monk at Town Hall (later the 8tet), in the 60s the stuff w/Sergio Mendes. Then a Romanticism set in w/Michel Legrand that was emotional-some would say overbearing-I find it lush and from the guts and heart. But 57-61 was just about magical w/swinging, joyful, and insouciant (sp) solos that always found a bend in the road. Plus all the lead he played. What else you gonna do w/that sound?Stereo stereo. Again again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted April 26, 2012 Report Share Posted April 26, 2012 IIRC what happened to Quill (I think this account was from an interview with Woods) was this: Gene was an extremely feisty, fiery guy, quick to take offense and quick to put his dukes up, and while working in Atlantic City he got into with some guy (or guys) of the sort one shouldn't get into it with and was beaten to within the proverbial inch of his life. He lived on for a while after that (for how long I don't know) but never came close to recovering. Alcohol and drug problems he may have had, but I think this is the story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted April 26, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 26, 2012 that sounds right, He was very out of it when I spoke to him. Pity, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted April 27, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2012 been listening to lots of phil woods clips on youtube - my conclusion: his playing started going down hill when he started wearing that hat. That was the beginning of the end, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgcim Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 Don't miss the "Three Bones and a Quill" album. The bones (Jimmy Cleveland, Jim Dahl, and Frank Rehak) and Quill were all members of Johnny Richards orchestra, and the togetherness shows. Haven't sat down and studied this, but on the whole I like Quill best when he was apart from Phil Woods; together, things seemed to get a bit too "athletic" for my tastes for both of them, though the time of their partnership was still before Woods came to be rather artificially "hot" IMO. But we've been down that road before; sorry for mentioning it. Speaking of the Johnny Richards Orchestra, Quill is featured a great deal on the "Wide Range" LP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free For All Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 Don't miss the "Three Bones and a Quill" album. The bones (Jimmy Cleveland, Jim Dahl, and Frank Rehak) and Quill were all members of Johnny Richards orchestra, and the togetherness shows. Haven't sat down and studied this, but on the whole I like Quill best when he was apart from Phil Woods; together, things seemed to get a bit too "athletic" for my tastes for both of them, though the time of their partnership was still before Woods came to be rather artificially "hot" IMO. But we've been down that road before; sorry for mentioning it. Speaking of the Johnny Richards Orchestra, Quill is featured a great deal on the "Wide Range" LP. "Wide Range" is also included on the Johnny Richards Mosaic Select. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 1960 Posted June 3, 2012 Report Share Posted June 3, 2012 Thanks to Allen Lowe for recently recommending this release. Thoroughly enjoyable from start to finish! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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