soundenvelope Posted July 20, 2012 Report Share Posted July 20, 2012 "In writing this book, I changed from a linear perspective that perpetuates a rigid tradition-based understanding to a more useful, flexible and accurate ontological one. I use the term free music as an umbrella term in place of the many terms that signify a period or specific body of work, all of which were lumped together under the term “jazz” and then shuttled away. I blame this syndrome on the jazz industry, which has consistently devalued, maligned, disregarded, ignored, or relegated free music to the lowest place, assuming it to be unsellable. Ironically, innovation – the very thing that makes all of this music historically significant – is exactly what devalues it by industry and institutional standards. Rather than waste my time fighting this revisionist and ignorant perspective, I chose to not use jazz as a name to describe any material in my book. I use methodology because free music has formal elements and informal ones, each reliant on the other to become the whole. Free music is used as a name for any work in which the artist has set the criteria free from critical approval, industry or institutional oversight; a context in which the artist decides if that criteria was met, in which the player or players have freedom to express themselves through improvisation, using the particulars imbedded within the operational methodology in use. This definition of free music does not exclude improvised music that relies on harmony. Instead it views the use of harmony as a device within a methodology. So Louis Armstrong and Charlie Parker are free music musicians, as is Anthony Braxton. In free music, artists synthesize, interpret, and invent material. But invention to some degree is the goal. And invention can be accomplished by the discovery of a new synthesis or new interpretation." Joe Morris Point of Departure Issue 39 May, 2012 Joe Morris' upcoming book, Perpetual Frontier: The Properties of Free Music, will change things. Joe's pedagogy is clear and deep, not to mention effective. Read Joe Morris previewing his upcoming book at Point of Departure: http://www.pointofdeparture.org/PoD39/PoD39PerpetualFrontier.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertoart Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 After reading the link I have to say I enjoyed reading Joe Morris's writing about his experience and teaching of free music as much as I do his playing. It would be interesting to hear in the near future from musicians who work through some of the methodologies and personal idioms his book looks to grasp. It was also interesting to read him speak of the mystic/spiritual aspect of improvisation as sometimes being an impediment to inclusiveness and access to free music expression. An attempt to bridge the gap between the philosophy and something categorisable as procedural methodology seems like a worthy thing to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 An attempt to bridge the gap between the philosophy and something categorisable as procedural methodology seems like a worthy thing to do. Why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertoart Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 (edited) An attempt to bridge the gap between the philosophy and something categorisable as procedural methodology seems like a worthy thing to do. Why? Because maybe you love the music and you haven't got the privilege to go to music school and hang out with Joe Morris. And maybe it would be good to have someones insights into the personal idioms of Taylor and Ornette and Ayler etc. I think it would be good. There wasn't a lot of it about when I was interested in playing that stuff. Like Cecil Taylor says in the Bill Dixon thread about moving beyond just copping the feel, it sounds like Morris is looking to contribute something concrete to that. And cause he's a bloody great guitar player Edited July 21, 2012 by freelancer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 Hmmm...I don't know....bridged gaps usually tun into walls. Maybe the gaps work out for the better good. Ain't no living in a perfect world! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundenvelope Posted July 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 An attempt to bridge the gap between the philosophy and something categorisable as procedural methodology seems like a worthy thing to do. Why? Simple answer: in order to learn how to work/create free music. Not to be flip, but the truth will set you free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundenvelope Posted July 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 After reading the link I have to say I enjoyed reading Joe Morris's writing about his experience and teaching of free music as much as I do his playing. It would be interesting to hear in the near future from musicians who work through some of the methodologies and personal idioms his book looks to grasp. It was also interesting to read him speak of the mystic/spiritual aspect of improvisation as sometimes being an impediment to inclusiveness and access to free music expression. An attempt to bridge the gap between the philosophy and something categorisable as procedural methodology seems like a worthy thing to do. Joe has been teaching this method, field-testing it if you will, at New England Conservatory and Longy School of Music of Bard College over the past two years. The book was developed through this work. And yes, there are quite a few students who have put the methodology into direct practice outside of academia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 Here's an even simpler method - know what you want, know what you don;t want, and proceed according, never forgetting how much you don;t know, but then deciding where/if some/all of it fits/doesn;t fit, and just....keep on going. In time, you an write your own book and have you own methodology, but then you might start to see the folly from teaching individual freedom instead of just living it and making sure it gets in the water supply. How do we play free music? Like this! Like THIS? Noooo, LIKE THIS!!! That doesn't feel right to me. Well. that must be because you're not free enough yet. Here, let;s work on freeing you up. And so on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 (edited) Without having read the book - I would like to - my feeling is that Joe's approach is akin to teaching abstract painting. Though abstract painting might not have the same visual properties as representational painting, it still has a variety of principles that can be taught in order to give the student a very wide array of methodological choices. That doesn't mean the student will be boxed in, and nor does it preclude the student following their own path. I don't think Joe's book or course would deviate from the Dixonian dictum, "you start from where you are - you'll get to the rest in time." Edited July 21, 2012 by clifford_thornton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 I've no problem with Mr. Morris or his book, just where a succession of efforts but others not as attuned to the, shall we say, "necessary balances" that create the dynamic in the first place will lead. More well-intentioned pedagogy would be all but inevitable, and it would be likely that it goes downhill from there., Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundenvelope Posted July 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 (edited) Here's an even simpler method - know what you want, know what you don;t want, and proceed according, never forgetting how much you don;t know, but then deciding where/if some/all of it fits/doesn;t fit, and just....keep on going. In time, you an write your own book and have you own methodology, but then you might start to see the folly from teaching individual freedom instead of just living it and making sure it gets in the water supply. How do we play free music? Like this? Like THIS? Noooo, LIKE THIS!!! That doesn't feel right to me. Well. that must be because you're not free enough yet. Here, let;s work on freeing you up. And so on. Alright. While it might seem silly to respond to your comment/thoughts, let's give it a try. I am assuming that you have nothing against conversation and are willing to exchange ideas. First, a few questions: to you make music/play an instrument? If yes, do you improvise with others? Clearly you have spent time considering what free improvisation means/feels like to you. Have you ever studied with anyone formally, in/out of a school setting? One more question on the way out the door to weed my garden: did you read Joe's article? If you did, I would be surprised if you did not find something that has resonance with the stance you are sharing here. Let me give you an example: "Free music is an art form that has been made by individuals who operated without regard for critical or institutional approval, who invented the way they play their instruments and invented platforms on which to play that music, based on whatever aesthetic value they thought mattered to them. The idea of that undiscovered place, one that enlightens someone or enhances the life of the player or listener, is not a finished concept. It’s a perpetual frontier. By determining to leave things open-ended in concept and still allow for a better understanding of how things can be done, not just why things should be done, we allow for the possibility that more will emerge. Musical skills are like language. Fluency in speech allows for better expression. An informed imagination combined with a fluent tongue makes for eloquent statements that might help us all to evolve beyond where we are to someplace new again." I am looking forward to the conversation. Always great to have an exchange with someone who is passionate about what they believe. Seriously. Enjoy the day. Edited July 21, 2012 by Stephen Haynes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 Deeds, not words. And yes, I have played, and improvised, and done so freely. Lots. Not saying there aren't processes involved in getting to where you want to go, but at the end of the day it's not something that gets done by talking about it. Again, nothing against Joe Morris or his book, but as somebody who's spent more than a few hours conversating with fellow players about the whys & how of what we do and want to do and are going to do and are doing and have done...most of that talk ends up being so much pep-talk and/or navel-gazing. And the lion's share of the actual DOING involves playing in rel time. The way to get it done is to do it. If there's stuff you don't know yet, go to where the answer is, figure it out and then walk away back home to get it together yourself. It's way too easy to talk/think yourself into a place where everything you do matters because it's "creative" and/or "free". Then when it comes time to play, OOOH!!!!! MAGIC!!!!! Uh...hardly. If there was really that much magic and freedom in the world, it would not be the world that it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundenvelope Posted July 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 Without having read the book - I would like to - my feeling is that Joe's approach is akin to teaching abstract painting. Though abstract painting might not have the same visual properties as representational painting, it still has a variety of principles that can be taught in order to give the student a very wide array of methodological choices. That doesn't mean the student will be boxed in, and nor does it preclude the student following their own path. I don't think Joe's book or course would deviate from the Dixonian dictum, "you start from where you are - you'll get to the rest in time." Great analogy, Clifford. Anything that is physical and aesthetic involves technique. And that is the point here. For far too long, the tools for making, using Bill Dixon's language, 'this music,' have been either mystified, mis-taught or never shared in a pragmatic functional (for thought or action) fashion. Joe Morris has opened wide a door to the room of free music (be sure refer to Joe's definition of this label as opposed to free jazz) for anyone to use/have access to. As an active artist, I can't tell you how many folks I have witnessed laboring under false assumptions/knowledge regarding this music, how it is made and what the significance of the work is/will be over time. As a former student, I can tell you how difficult it was/is to find anyone, particularly an artist, who is willing and, more importantly, able to teach what they know/do in a direct fashion that can be immediately be put to use. Joe Morris is an American original. What he is engaged in with Perpetual Frontier will change everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundenvelope Posted July 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 Deeds, not words. And yes, I have played, and improvised, and done so freely. Lots. Not saying there aren't processes involved in getting to where you want to go, but at the end of the day it's not something that gets done by talking about it. Again, nothing against Joe Morris or his book, but as somebody who's spent more than a few hours conversating with fellow players about the whys & how of what we do and want to do and are going to do and are doing and have done...most of that talk ends up being so much pep-talk and/or navel-gazing. And the lion's share of the actual DOING involves playing in rel time. The way to get it done is to do it. If there's stuff you don't know yet, go to where the answer is, figure it out and then walk away back home to get it together yourself. It's way too easy to talk/think yourself into a place where everything you do matters because it's "creative" and/or "free". Then when it comes time to play, OOOH!!!!! MAGIC!!!!! Uh...hardly. If there was really that much magic and freedom in the world, it would not be the world that it is. Good to hear a bit more of your voice, and thanks for sharing your thoughts. Thanks for confirming the fact that you are a musician actively engaged in unraveling the mystery. Believe me, I do share your distaste for much of what passes as teaching/discourse in the music. That's why I find Joe Morris and his work to be such a breath of fresh air. And I would guess that Joe would agree with you you that there is no substitute for practice/working on the thing you love/wish to create. I think we all agree on that one, my friend. I will say, and I would be surprised if you did not agree with this, that, after one does the work, a necessary next step is reflection/self-analysis on/of what one just did. The work/process of working has to be balanced to be effective. And it is clear that you very much do think about what you are engaged in and share your thoughts with others on the path. And you are right, some of that works and some of that most definitely does not work. And there are reasons for that failure waiting to be apprehended. How would one hear your work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 Look around the internets for the two old Quartet Out CDs. I'm moderately pleased with those. I'm also on some even older still (waaaaay older still) recordings of Dennis Gonzalez & Rob Blakeslee, none of which I'm really happy with, at least with my contributions. But oh well. Nowadays, when I play at all. I mostly do weddings and club dates. You'd probably not want to hear that, although it's a bigger, harder, blunter chunk of "reality" (in all kinds of ways) than most of the "pure" music I played. Then again, the reality I learned playing that pure music is what keeps me able to play these money gigs without resorting to homicide or other acts of uncomfort. OTOH, the karmic kollisions that are most weddings and club dates transfers well to virginal idealism so often found in much of purer musical idioms. Betweem "what is" and "what could be" is a whole lot more than just music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlhoots Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 (edited) FWIW I've enjoyed Mr. Haynes playing with Taylor Ho Bynum, Bill Dixon, etc. Edited July 21, 2012 by jlhoots Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 I wanna hear about playing with The Dells. I DIG The Dells! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundenvelope Posted July 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 (edited) I wanna hear about playing with The Dells. I DIG The Dells! The way the Dells work is that they have lead contractors regionally who hire the supporting band for a given leg of a tour. Trombonist Al Patterson called me for a series of dates around the time that I moved to Connecticut. Players included EJ Allen, Craig Harris and Don Byron (on baritone saxophone) among others. Getting to hear and play on Stand in my Corner left an indelible impression on me. Edited July 21, 2012 by Stephen Haynes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 You probably meant "Stay In My Corner", but hey, it's still early, and yeah, I know what you mean. I did some shows with The Temptations and The Four Tops (same deal basically, locally contracted horns, but they were still traveling with their own rhythm section). and hearing/seeing those voices live, feeling the combined vibrations of the harmony in the flesh rather than through a record player...yeah, that's a life experience right there, for sure. Playing rather anonymous horn parts, not so much. But feeling those voices and seeing them just a few feet away as it happens, yeah, that's all part of the magic. Big time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 hi Steve - I look forward to Joe's book; his approach is much different than mine, but we all benefit from understanding how and why people express things the way they do (as a matter of fact I am currently reading Conversations with Joyce). I've long felt that there is a strain of anti-intellectualism in jazz which is damaging to the music. This book sounds like it will be a nice companion to Derek Bailey's book in improvisation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7/4 Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 Interview: Joe Morris by Phil Freeman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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