Thelonious Monk

[romualdo]

Did TM record "Honeysuckle Rose" once or twice for Columbia

There's a bit of confusion surrounding this track

Version 1. Studio trio (Gales & Riley) version from March 2, 1965 -> this session was all solo material except for Honeysuckle...

This title was released on the Columbia LP "Misterioso" (not had a US release on CD), a mixed bag of live/fake-live tracks

According to Robin Kelley's book (pp 371 & 544) Teo Macero added an applause track & sourced it as live at the Village Gate - it was actually the studio version

Version 2. Live (Jazz Workshop) Nov 3, 1964 - an incomplete version according to the Lord Discog (CO 85107) first released on the double LP "Always Know" in 79

This is supposed to run for about 10mins according to info I have; It wasn't released on the double Workshop CD from the early 2000's - wonder why? (non Monk material??)

I don't have any Columbia copies of this title (vinyl or CD)

There is a version on the triple Monk Columbia compilation from the early 2000's - is it an alternate or actually the released March 2, 1965 version (with or without applause) or the real "live" version from the JW

Also, was this title really recorded at the JW or was it "faked/tweaked" too

What version is on the euro CD release of Misterioso

Any Monk scholars or others with access to these LPs/Cds out there who can help me out

[king ubu]

Kelly lists two versions:

http://www.monkbook.com/sessionography/sessionography-1963-1965/

November 3, 1964, The Jazz Workshop, San Francisco

rel. on Always Know (Columbia JG 35720)

March 2, 1965, 30th Street Studios, New York

rel. on Misterioso (Columbia CL 2416)

I'd tend to trust that information.

Sheridan gives the very same info (not sure this links actually works):

http://books.google.ch/books?id=soVtoCn8pRQC&pg=PA129&lpg=PA129&dq=monk+columbia+Col+JG35720&source=bl&ots=q292_qIpfG&sig=KhXRaBRfZQtJfy2pgp5BQnMmkaE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=526KUPbbLIaytAan-oDgCQ&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=honeysuckle&f=false

[mikeweil]

My discographical work on Tjader taught me to never trust any information without having listened to the records themselves.

I have both versions, will listen to them once more on the weekend and post here after that ....

Several discographical credits on the Misterioso LP and its French CD counterpart are downright incorrect!

[king ubu]

My discographical work on Tjader taught me to never trust any information without having listened to the records themselves.

I have both versions, will listen to them once more on the weekend and post here after that ....

Several discographical credits on the Misterioso LP and its French CD counterpart are downright incorrect!

Sure ... but if I'd trust anyone on Monk, it's Kelley!

Can't help with my ears as I don't think I have those tracks at all.

[romualdo]

My discographical work on Tjader taught me to never trust any information without having listened to the records themselves.

I have both versions, will listen to them once more on the weekend and post here after that ....

Several discographical credits on the Misterioso LP and its French CD counterpart are downright incorrect!

totally agree - I find that discographical information can be initially erroneously entered then perpetuated through the years & from discography to discography

look forward to your findings

[mikeweil]

Didn't have the time to look into Kelley's book, but listened to the records.

There are three (!) recordings of Honeysuckle Rose Monk made for Columbia:

>>> November 3, 1964, The Jazz Workshop, San Francisco

>>> rel. on Always Know (Columbia JG 35720)

This is faded in at the beginning. It was the last number recorded that evening, either the engineers had run out of tape or had already switched off and thus missed the first bars when the band resumed playing. That this take is incomplete and that it runs 10:00 probably is the reason why Keepnews did not include it in his "complete" double CD edition of the Jazz Workshop recordings - he had to omit something as the two CDs were filled.

>>> March 2, 1965, 30th Street Studios, New York

>>> rel. on Misterioso (Columbia CL 2416)

The take on the Misterioso LP is take 2, running 9:39 4:38, and has applause overdubbed (Teo Macero wanted everything to sound live, as the LP was labelled "recorded on tour") - take 1 was released by Keepnews on the 3 CD box 'The Columbia Years", it runs 7:03 minutes - one more proof that in serious discographical work, one has to list every detail of a track, including running time.

Seems now that the Tjader disco is done I will have to contemplate about a Monk disco, an accurate one, that is - a daunting task, but those many inaccuracies etc. drive me nuts.

Edited October 28, 2012 by mikeweil

[mikeweil]

According to his "sessionography" Kelley does not seem to be aware that there are two takes recorded at the March 2, 1965 session.

It's a lot of work, but why didn't he do it right, use BRIAN and type in all the information including master numbers and track timings? I don't get it ...

Oh, and Sheridan also has only one studio take.

Now that I went both ways, the text-based as most authors do, and the database way, like those discos on http://www.jazzdiscography.com I know the latter is the better.

Edited October 27, 2012 by mikeweil

[king ubu]

Yes, but they still do look ugly ... someone ought to try and create a somewhat nicer design!

Thanks for checking and reporting back! I guess that third version then is the only one I've actually got, forgot about it, too!

[Steve Gray]

Didn't have the time to look into Kelley's book, but listened to the records.

There are three (!) recordings of Honeysuckle Rose Monk made for Columbia:

>>> November 3, 1964, The Jazz Workshop, San Francisco

>>> rel. on Always Know (Columbia JG 35720)

This is faded in at the beginning. It was the last number recorded that evening, either the engineers had run out of tape or had already switched off and thus missed the first bars when the band resumed playing. That this take is incomplete and that it runs 10:00 probably is the reason why Keepnews did not include it in his "complete" double CD edition of the Jazz Workshop recordings - he had to omit something as the two CDs were filled.

>>> March 2, 1965, 30th Street Studios, New York

>>> rel. on Misterioso (Columbia CL 2416)

The take on the Misterioso LP is take 2, running 9:39, and has applause overdubbed (Teo Macero wanted everything to sound live, as the LP was labelled "recorded on tour") - take 1 was released by Keepnews on the 3 CD box 'The Columbia Years", it runs 7:03 minutes - one more proof that in serious discographical work, one has to list every detail of a track, including running time.

Seems now that the Tjader disco is done I will have to contemplate about a Monk disco, an accurate one, that is - a daunting task, but those many inaccuracies etc. drive me nuts.

On my copy of Misterioso, Honeysuckle Rose lasts 4.41

[mikeweil]

Yes, but they still do look ugly ... someone ought to try and create a somewhat nicer design!

The more you dive into serious discography like I do, the more you care for accuracy of information and the less for looks. Have you ever worked with an interrelational database like BRIAN? The advantages are so many that the looks become secondary. Precise information is what is important. Any funny layout corrupts the display of the data. Start working with BRIAN, and you will get the idea. Once you do it will save you lots of time.

[king ubu]

Yes, but they still do look ugly ... someone ought to try and create a somewhat nicer design!

The more you dive into serious discography like I do, the more you care for accuracy of information and the less for looks. Have you ever worked with an interrelational database like BRIAN? The advantages are so many that the looks become secondary. Precise information is what is important. Any funny layout corrupts the display of the data. Start working with BRIAN, and you will get the idea. Once you do it will save you lots of time.

I('ve got to) work with similar programmes at work ... I can fully endorse your point of view, but still I find the layout of those discographies rather cumbersome, I'm afraid. But obviously they're a great source and the best around on the internets!

[romualdo]

Didn't have the time to look into Kelley's book, but listened to the records.

There are three (!) recordings of Honeysuckle Rose Monk made for Columbia:

>>> November 3, 1964, The Jazz Workshop, San Francisco

>>> rel. on Always Know (Columbia JG 35720)

This is faded in at the beginning. It was the last number recorded that evening, either the engineers had run out of tape or had already switched off and thus missed the first bars when the band resumed playing. That this take is incomplete and that it runs 10:00 probably is the reason why Keepnews did not include it in his "complete" double CD edition of the Jazz Workshop recordings - he had to omit something as the two CDs were filled.

>>> March 2, 1965, 30th Street Studios, New York

>>> rel. on Misterioso (Columbia CL 2416)

The take on the Misterioso LP is take 2, running 9:39, and has applause overdubbed (Teo Macero wanted everything to sound live, as the LP was labelled "recorded on tour") - take 1 was released by Keepnews on the 3 CD box 'The Columbia Years", it runs 7:03 minutes - one more proof that in serious discographical work, one has to list every detail of a track, including running time.

Seems now that the Tjader disco is done I will have to contemplate about a Monk disco, an accurate one, that is - a daunting task, but those many inaccuracies etc. drive me nuts.

Mike, many thanks for the interest & effort

If unsure always "go to the source"

Another Monk discography item that needs to be sorted is/are the Paris Olympia Concert(s) - I commenced a thread on this last year

[mikeweil]

On my copy of Misterioso, Honeysuckle Rose lasts 4.41

My copy says 4:38 - my mistake. I corrected my post above.

[king ubu]

Will pick up "Always Know" tomorrow, then

Is there anything otherwise unavailable on it besides that one ten-minute "Honeysuckle Rose"?

[romualdo]

Will pick up "Always Know" tomorrow, then

Is there anything otherwise unavailable on it besides that one ten-minute "Honeysuckle Rose"?

Of the total of 13 titles on this double LP, 11 definitely have made it to CD

One definitely has not plus the second is dubious

1. Honeysuckle Rose (10:00)

2. not sure about Shuffle Boil (5:26)(supposedly from Jan 30, 1964, according to Lord) - the early 2000's CD version of It's Monk's Time contained an "unreleased" take #5 of Shuffle Boil running at 4:52 -> could this actually be the same title (timing out a bit though)

Someone needs to listen to both versions (I don't have the LP) & report back

[king ubu]

Okay, will get the LP anyway ... if I transfer "Shuffle Boil" to digital, I could compare with the Legacy edition of "It's Monk's Time". Might even try and do so tonight!

[mikeweil]

I have both, but no idea when my move will allow comparative listening ....

[Steve Gray]

Will pick up "Always Know" tomorrow, then

Is there anything otherwise unavailable on it besides that one ten-minute "Honeysuckle Rose"?

Of the total of 13 titles on this double LP, 11 definitely have made it to CD

One definitely has not plus the second is dubious

1. Honeysuckle Rose (10:00)

2. not sure about Shuffle Boil (5:26)(supposedly from Jan 30, 1964, according to Lord) - the early 2000's CD version of It's Monk's Time contained an "unreleased" take #5 of Shuffle Boil running at 4:52 -> could this actually be the same title (timing out a bit though)

Someone needs to listen to both versions (I don't have the LP) & report back

As 'Always Know' has been available on CD on a French release, I guess that means that all 13 have been available on CD.

I am looking at my copy of the double CD as I write this.

EDIT: On a cursory listen, the 'Shuffle Boil' on 'Always Know' sounds different to both versions on 'Monk's Time'

Edited December 3, 2012 by Steve Gray

[romualdo]

Will pick up "Always Know" tomorrow, then

Is there anything otherwise unavailable on it besides that one ten-minute "Honeysuckle Rose"?

Of the total of 13 titles on this double LP, 11 definitely have made it to CD

One definitely has not plus the second is dubious

1. Honeysuckle Rose (10:00)

2. not sure about Shuffle Boil (5:26)(supposedly from Jan 30, 1964, according to Lord) - the early 2000's CD version of It's Monk's Time contained an "unreleased" take #5 of Shuffle Boil running at 4:52 -> could this actually be the same title (timing out a bit though)

Someone needs to listen to both versions (I don't have the LP) & report back

As 'Always Know' has been available on CD on a French release, I guess that means that all 13 have been available on CD.

I am looking at my copy of the double CD as I write this.

EDIT: On a cursory listen, the 'Shuffle Boil' on 'Always Know' sounds different to both versions on 'Monk's Time'

Well wadda u know - never knew it had been released on CD (~1994, France)

Thanks for that info Steve

Just did a quick check -> going for £80+ on UK Amazon, $38+ on US Amazon, absent on Amazon France or Ebay

at those prices it would be better to pick up the LP & digitalise it yourself for just the one or two tracks

Edited December 3, 2012 by romualdo

[king ubu]

Got the double LP for around 13 swiss franks (or the price of one and a half pints of Guiness in the Irish pub here), that's fine with me, no need for an overpriced old CD. But thanks for mentioning it, Steve, wasn't aware of it, either!

[allblues]

I agree with mikeweil about Honeysuckle Rose and "The Columbia Years." Chris Sheridan's "Brilliant Corners" was published before the release of this compilation and couldn't include it. Tom Lord's online discography also fails to take it into account.

Trying to determine a recording date for the recording of Shuffle Boil on "Always Know" raises questions about how many takes were eventually released. There seem to be 3.

According to Sheridan, a rejected take was attempted on 1-29-64 as matrix CO 81233, and as far as we know, was never released. However, Jazzdisco.org once listed this date as the source for "It's Monk's Time" (Columbia CL 2184/CS 8984) although the date has since been corrected.

Another take (5:26) was recorded on 1-30-64 following Stuffy Turkey, which Sheridan lists as released on Columbia JG 35720 ("Always Know"). I don't have my copy of the LP at hand, but my notes list 1-30-64. Lord currently assigns this take to 3-9-64. The defunct Thelonious Monk Website (www.howardm.net/tsmonk/) also listed the date as 3-9-64. Jazzdisco.org agrees with Sheridan and attributes the "Always Know" take to 1-30-64.

The take on CL 2184 is the longest recording, listed as 7:07 on the Legacy CK 63532 issue, where it is identified as "Retake," possibly in reference to the recordings at the January sessions.

81233-5 is the shortest released take and listed on 63352 as 4:51. If this is in fact take 5, there seems to be at least one take not accounted for and not released.

Edited December 29, 2012 by allblues