Kennedy Center Honors Buddy Guy and Led Zeppelin

[JETman]

All of the casual discounting of the British Invasion aside, what I really would like to know is: if the Kennedy Center decides to honor rock and roll (an arguably American musical form), which AMERICAN would have been a more appropriate choice to carry the flag than the talentless "blimeys" who were chosen?

[robertoart]

there is a 1968 solo by Jeff Beck at the Fillmore that is simply one of the greatest blues guitar solos ever played; IMHO those guys saved the blues, injected some much-needed life into what was becoming a dormant form. Same with Johnny Winter, Bloomfield, of course, Bloodwyn Pig, Hendrix, The Blues Magoos, The Animals, and Willie Horton. Just my opinion.

I've read you mention this Beck thing a few times. I'm sure it's of the quality you say it is. Still...

He does belong in the Jazz-Rock Mullet Hall Of Fame, no doubt about that.

All of the casual discounting of the British Invasion aside, what I really would like to know is: if the Kennedy Center decides to honor rock and roll (an arguably American musical form), which AMERICAN would have been a more appropriate choice to carry the flag than the talentless "blimeys" who were chosen?

Johnnie Ray.

For being the bridge between Sinatra and Elvis in the heartthrob stakes.

At least in Australia anyway.

And what's with Keith Richards giving Buddy Guy his guitar at the end of that Stones Concert film?

What's all that about. Comes across as a very patronising, paternalistic gesture from 'The Great White Blues Player'.

Did Richards just spring that on Buddy Guy?

Buddy Guy should have hit Richards over the head with it and given him a contrecoup injury.

Edited December 29, 2012 by freelancer

[kh1958]

He probably figured he could sell it.

[Jim R]

there is a 1968 solo by Jeff Beck at the Fillmore that is simply one of the greatest blues guitar solos ever played; my favorite blues guitar solos... that I've heard (I haven't heard every blues guitar solo ever played, of course, although I'd like people to think so ).

There you go. You're welcome.

[danasgoodstuff]

Anyone else think it was rather telling that Jeff Beck played in the Buddy Guy tribute and not in the Zep? Given his long history with Page it's hard to not see it as a rather deliberate slight.

My understanding of how this works at the Kennedy Center is that the Artist being honored is typically paid tribute by others influenced by him or her and generally they seem to be of a younger generation than the honoree. Given that Beck is rather more of a contemporary of Zep's and arguably as much as or more of an influence on Page than the other way around, then it would not make sense for Beck to be honoring Zep. That would be kind of like McCartney honoring Badfinger!

OK, this makes sense, the rest of this thread, not so much. JSngry too, in his own way.

[Soulstation1]

http://youtu.be/46pnW2HNQ4A

I like Lenny Kravitz's tribute

[Noj]

It would be great if Led Zeppelin shared their tribute by listing all the American blues artists they "borrowed" from. That's what I'd like to see Page and Plant do, share their influences with everyone and try to reflect some of their abundant glory toward the blues musicians (and British folk musicians) who helped make it possible. I've used Zeppelin's discography and those of other blues rock acts as a primer for building my blues collection. Others can do this as well, I'd just like to see Page and Plant encourage it. For what it's worth, their taste in blues was impeccable.

[robertoart]

It would be great if Led Zeppelin shared their tribute by listing all the American blues artists they "borrowed" from. That's what I'd like to see Page and Plant do, share their influences with everyone and try to reflect some of their abundant glory toward the blues musicians (and British folk musicians) who helped make it possible. I've used Zeppelin's discography and those of other blues rock acts as a primer for building my blues collection. Others can do this as well, I'd just like to see Page and Plant encourage it. For what it's worth, their taste in blues was impeccable.

That would be interesting indeed.

But also, with a tradition and recorded legacy as great as The Blues, impeccable taste is par for the course.

i have always felt that the British Blues Rock artists were good at acknowledging the Blues 'in the general' but rather more sheepish about acknowledging it 'in the particular'. This was in some contrast to many of the more 'grassroots' American 'White' Blues players and enthusiasts (especially some of the acoustic or 'fingerstyle' players' who often had "hands on' or disciple/student' relationships with many of the major Black players). I remember reading insights, at various times, regarding people like Rev. Gary Davis, Fred McDowell, and others.

Interestingly I remember reading Mississippi Fred McDowell being asked directly, how he felt about hearing his musical culture appropriated by so many others...his gracious reply was that...he took comfort from knowing that, no matter what or how anyone chose to claim or appropriate his music...those same people always knew in their hearts where they got it from. This was from a 1970's Guitar Player interview I think.

How I loved reading the interviews with those Old Black Masters in that magazine especially.

An interview with Pee Wee Crayton also springs to mind.

[JETman]

Actually, the art of saying "nothing" remains par for the course on this board. No matter what you or anyone else here wants to say to deflect the issue from where it originally stood in this thread, the act of indignantly whining about why American jazz artists haven't been appropriately recognized by the government of these United States by calling English artists who are derogatory names is just bad form. Is Led Zeppelin to blame for this? Should Led Zeppelin be blamed for the fact that NO American rock band could touch them with a ten foot pole? Was it the band's duty to publicly name the sources for its "blues"? Does the fact that they didn't take away from their accomplishments? I answer a resounding "NO" to all.

Get off the high horse and get real.

[Chuck Nessa]

Gee.

[skeith]

Actually, the art of saying "nothing" remains par for the course on this board. No matter what you or anyone else here wants to say to deflect the issue from where it originally stood in this thread, the act of indignantly whining about why American jazz artists haven't been appropriately recognized by the government of these United States by calling English artists who are derogatory names is just bad form. Is Led Zeppelin to blame for this? Should Led Zeppelin be blamed for the fact that NO American rock band could touch them with a ten foot pole? Was it the band's duty to publicly name the sources for its "blues"? Does the fact that they didn't take away from their accomplishments? I answer a resounding "NO" to all.

Get off the high horse and get real.

I think that the Allman Brothers could play and compose as well as Zep and I much preferred them.

[JETman]

Actually, the art of saying "nothing" remains par for the course on this board. No matter what you or anyone else here wants to say to deflect the issue from where it originally stood in this thread, the act of indignantly whining about why American jazz artists haven't been appropriately recognized by the government of these United States by calling English artists who are derogatory names is just bad form. Is Led Zeppelin to blame for this? Should Led Zeppelin be blamed for the fact that NO American rock band could touch them with a ten foot pole? Was it the band's duty to publicly name the sources for its "blues"? Does the fact that they didn't take away from their accomplishments? I answer a resounding "NO" to all.

Get off the high horse and get real.

I think that the Allman Brothers could play and compose as well as Zep and I much preferred them.

Opinion and reality rarely intersect.

[skeith]

Actually, the art of saying "nothing" remains par for the course on this board. No matter what you or anyone else here wants to say to deflect the issue from where it originally stood in this thread, the act of indignantly whining about why American jazz artists haven't been appropriately recognized by the government of these United States by calling English artists who are derogatory names is just bad form. Is Led Zeppelin to blame for this? Should Led Zeppelin be blamed for the fact that NO American rock band could touch them with a ten foot pole? Was it the band's duty to publicly name the sources for its "blues"? Does the fact that they didn't take away from their accomplishments? I answer a resounding "NO" to all.

Get off the high horse and get real.

I think that the Allman Brothers could play and compose as well as Zep and I much preferred them.

Opinion and reality rarely intersect.

SO your statement above that "NO American rock band could touch them [Zep] with a ten foot pole" - is that reality or your opinion?

[Dan Gould]

Opinion and reality rarely intersect.

A miracle has finally happened on this last day of the season of light. You said something intelligent.

Now please take your leave. Its called showmanship.

[JETman]

Opinion and reality rarely intersect.

A miracle has finally happened on this last day of the season of light. You said something intelligent.

Now please take your leave. Its called showmanship.

Back off, Jack!

[7/4]

I loved the English hard rock bands of the late 60s/early 70s. There were only a handful of American bands that I liked. ZZ Top, Johnny Winter, the Allman Bros...maybe a bit of Aerosmith, BOC, Hot Tuna.

Zappa and Beefheart were something else entirely and didn't fit in to this, although the various Magic Bands could play some mean, heavy blues at times.

[PHILLYQ]

Actually, the art of saying "nothing" remains par for the course on this board. No matter what you or anyone else here wants to say to deflect the issue from where it originally stood in this thread, the act of indignantly whining about why American jazz artists haven't been appropriately recognized by the government of these United States by calling English artists who are derogatory names is just bad form. Is Led Zeppelin to blame for this? Should Led Zeppelin be blamed for the fact that NO American rock band could touch them with a ten foot pole? Was it the band's duty to publicly name the sources for its "blues"? Does the fact that they didn't take away from their accomplishments? I answer a resounding "NO" to all.

Get off the high horse and get real.

They could have acknowledged the tunes they stole(Wille Dixon, et al)

[JETman]

Actually, the art of saying "nothing" remains par for the course on this board. No matter what you or anyone else here wants to say to deflect the issue from where it originally stood in this thread, the act of indignantly whining about why American jazz artists haven't been appropriately recognized by the government of these United States by calling English artists who are derogatory names is just bad form. Is Led Zeppelin to blame for this? Should Led Zeppelin be blamed for the fact that NO American rock band could touch them with a ten foot pole? Was it the band's duty to publicly name the sources for its "blues"? Does the fact that they didn't take away from their accomplishments? I answer a resounding "NO" to all.

Get off the high horse and get real.

They could have acknowledged the tunes they stole(Wille Dixon, et al)

Everybody stole. It was the nature of the beast. Many have had a "hard-on" for Zep from the beginning. Nothing new.

I also found it funny that the "Roosky" who was honored that night wasn't even mentioned here. Surely a citizen of the former Soviet Union (the "Evil Empire") who sought political asylum during the height of the Cold War being honored by the American gov't would make for a more tantalizing/polarizing discussion. After all, it's not like there's been a shortage of equally talented American ballet dancers in our history (other than Edward Villella, who was so honored in 1997).

[robertoart]

Actually, the art of saying "nothing" remains par for the course on this board. No matter what you or anyone else here wants to say to deflect the issue from where it originally stood in this thread, the act of indignantly whining about why American jazz artists haven't been appropriately recognized by the government of these United States by calling English artists who are derogatory names is just bad form. Is Led Zeppelin to blame for this? Should Led Zeppelin be blamed for the fact that NO American rock band could touch them with a ten foot pole? Was it the band's duty to publicly name the sources for its "blues"? Does the fact that they didn't take away from their accomplishments? I answer a resounding "NO" to all.

Get off the high horse and get real.

They could have acknowledged the tunes they stole(Wille Dixon, et al)

Everybody stole. It was the nature of the beast. Many have had a "hard-on" for Zep from the beginning. Nothing new.

I also found it funny that the "Roosky" who was honored that night wasn't even mentioned here. Surely a citizen of the former Soviet Union (the "Evil Empire") who sought political asylum during the height of the Cold War being honored by the American gov't would make for a more tantalizing/polarizing discussion. After all, it's not like there's been a shortage of equally talented American ballet dancers in our history (other than Edward Villella, who was so honored in 1997).

Ballet dancing!

Now your talking!

[robertoart]

I loved the English hard rock bands of the late 60s/early 70s. There were only a handful of American bands that I liked. ZZ Top, Johnny Winter, the Allman Bros...maybe a bit of Aerosmith, BOC, Hot Tuna.

Zappa and Beefheart were something else entirely and didn't fit in to this, although the various Magic Bands could play some mean, heavy blues at times.

Johnny Winter!

Now there is a White Bluesman (in his heyday) who could play it loud and mean.

Faster, tougher, more authentic, and more 'Heavy", than any Englishmen.

The real man's Stevie Ray Vaughan.

[JETman]

I loved the English hard rock bands of the late 60s/early 70s. There were only a handful of American bands that I liked. ZZ Top, Johnny Winter, the Allman Bros...maybe a bit of Aerosmith, BOC, Hot Tuna.

Zappa and Beefheart were something else entirely and didn't fit in to this, although the various Magic Bands could play some mean, heavy blues at times.

Johnny Winter!

Now there is a White Bluesman (in his heyday) who could play it loud and mean.

Faster, tougher, more authentic, and more 'Heavy", than any Englishmen.

The real man's Stevie Ray Vaughan.

You go ahead and write a letter to your local Congressman.

[Jim R]

Johnny Winter!

Now there is a White Bluesman (in his heyday) who could play it loud and mean.

Faster, tougher, more authentic, and more 'Heavy", than any Englishmen.

The real man's Stevie Ray Vaughan.

[robertoart]

Johnny Winter!

Now there is a White Bluesman (in his heyday) who could play it loud and mean.

Faster, tougher, more authentic, and more 'Heavy", than any Englishmen.

The real man's Stevie Ray Vaughan.

Johnny Winter is a great redneck guitar player. I used to not like him at all, but I have changed. It may have been a mid-life crisis.

But there's no shame in saluting late 60's early 70's Johnny Winter, especially in the context of American/British Blues Rock players. And then there's the Great Fatsby Leslie West! Jimi Hendrix and John McLaughlin were Mountain fans.

Edited January 2, 2013 by freelancer

[Jim R]

Johnny Winter!

Now there is a White Bluesman (in his heyday) who could play it loud and mean.

Faster, tougher, more authentic, and more 'Heavy", than any Englishmen.

The real man's Stevie Ray Vaughan.

there's no shame in saluting late 60's early 70's Johnny Winter

It was the way you saluted him (for me, at least). I'll just leave it at that, as I think it's time for this discussion to go away.

[robertoart]

Johnny Winter!

Now there is a White Bluesman (in his heyday) who could play it loud and mean.

Faster, tougher, more authentic, and more 'Heavy", than any Englishmen.

The real man's Stevie Ray Vaughan.

there's no shame in saluting late 60's early 70's Johnny Winter

It was the way you saluted him (for me, at least). I'll just leave it at that, as I think it's time for this discussion to go away.

Well let me unpack my post...

Johnny Winter. White Bluesman.

The young Johnny Winter is chaperoned into a Black club (total African American social situation) to see and meet BB King. BB King graciously greets the young Johnny Winter and lets him sit in and play the Blues (total African American musical situation).

Not dissimilar to the experiences of the slightly older Bloomfield, Mandel etc al. going into Black clubs ( more total African American social and music situations), to see and meet Muddy Waters etc. al., ......so the emergence of a nascent White American response to Black American Electric Blues.

Johnny Winter plays it loud and mean.

Johnny Winter learns the Blues language, and then plays it with a psychedelic/hard rock sound combined with a performative sense of danger and intensity that gets across to a White audience beginning to favour long improvised Blues Rock improvisation.

Faster.

Johnny Winter had incredible technical facility early on. He played fast and clean lines.

Tougher.

There was a genuine sense of hard edge or threat to Winter's music that seemed real enough. Perhaps a Texan thing. Canned Heat (with Al Wilson and Bob Hite) had a gentler Country Blues vibe.

More authentic, and 'Heavy", than any Englishmen.

Perhaps, because the English Blues players learnt the music from records, and didn't experience the corporeality of the music, or share in the wider American cultural dispersion, I've become less taken by British Blues-Rock, than by late 60's 70's American Blues-Rock. Maybe this is why I always preferred Coryell's musical legacy to McLaughlin. Coryell always seemed to have an American (and Black American) sound in his hands, brilliant and sometimes shambolic (and still brilliant), whereas McLaughlin seemed to always have (or be trying to convey) a sense of Platonic purity in his work, that seemed incredibly British/European. And insufferably pretentious at the same time. it even carried over into those awful synth guitar albums he made.

Although in balance , I have seen his This Is How I Do It dvd, and he does seem to have a cheeky twinkle in his eye, and the way he tells the story of going to see the 'Hendrix at Monterey' movie with Miles is hilarious.

The real man's Stevie Ray Vaughan.

Edited February 17, 2013 by freelancer