BFT 110 Discussion

[Dan Gould]

Thanks to Jeff who can always be counted on for the most wide-ranging BFT possible. He did inspire me to create a new acronym which I hope will catch on (see below) so as Sangrey says, Saul Goode.

Track 1: Trumpet had me in mind of Blue Mitchell, off the Last Dance LP but then the guitar came in and I knew that was wrong. Liked the trumpet and piano, the guitar ... not so much.

Track 2: A Monk tune to start but I lost interest once he moved away from it.

Track 3 (and 4): two ancient tracks that Jeff loves and I can always take or leave. Just not intriguing enough to want to investigate further.

Track 5: HAFC DKDC and needless to say, NMCOT. But why go with old acronyms? Here's my new one: IHTTTFTO. I Had to Turn The Fucking Thing Off. :beee:

Track 6: WOH! From the awful to the sublime. That organ groove has got to be Charles Earland, but I have to say I have so many of his late-career recordings I can't say where this one comes from. Definitely no Eric Alexander in this band, though.

Track 7: Liked this a lot but no clue on the band or vocalist.

Track 8: Maybe I'm in a strange listening place right now but this one of those 'edgy' tunes that I might dig but today I am not.

Track 9: I like this but something tells me this saxophonist is some post-Trane artist who I normally wouldn't listen to, doing the standards thing, maybe for Venus?

Track 11: IHTTTFTO

Track 12: Lot of pleasure in this but no clue.

Track 13: But where's Ella? I guess I thought of her because I first heard this tune on her last record, which I know is painful listening to most but I kept it and don't hate it, and my first exposure to Armstrong was on their Verve LPs.

Track 14: Maybe I'm the only one to think this but I was reminded of that recurring SNL sketch with Will Ferrell and some female cast member, playing and singing for bored students.

[JSngry]

Dan - regarding # 13, check out the intermission music I posted to tide me over during the time that I figured Jeff to be preparing his response to my response. It's my favorite version of this tune bar none, Ella w/Basie, and AFAIK, not all that widely known. It was what I thought of while listening to the Jack Sheldon version presented by Jeff.

[Dan Gould]

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Budd it ain't Hodges, it's Johnson. Playing alto in 1953. With Lawrence Kayes (org), Hank Jones (p), Mickey Baker (g), Lloyd Trotman (b), Panama Francis (d). A 45 - Atlantic 1013.

MG

Oh, the tune is 'Off shore', recorded by Mr Bostic a month ealier.

Okay, it's the fourth day of the month, and my "impossible," "impenetrable" BFT selection has been identified. As far as I've been able to determine, this single has never been reissued. I assume that you're right and that it was issued on 45, but this recording is a transfer from my 78 collection. The other side is more recognizably Budd - he plays tenor on "Don't Take Your Love From Me."

I'm not sure who's ahead in points - MG or JSngry. MG definitely gets bonus points for this one.

Sorry, you're right Jeff, it was only issued as a 78. A bit late for only on 78 - don't expect Ahmet expected it to sell. But it seems to have been popular at the time. There was a Jackie Gleason recording of it a while later, so does that make it some kind of unknown standard?

And Jim's always ahead because he gets stuff in a way I don't. I just have reasonably good reference skills

MG

[JSngry]

a-HA!

[JSngry]

Re: #12, never seen this before, but....wow, if true:

http://www.bowdoin.edu/faculty/s/smcmahon/courses/hist233/files/Iko_Iko.pdf

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Struth!

MG

[JSngry]

Does #12 predate Sugar Boy's version? Really interesting if so....

[JSngry]

Struth!

MG

Yeah, I've heard things about the Indians over the years (they've been an on-again off-again fascination of mine for the last 35 years or so), how they're at their deepest level one of the only, perhaps the only, repositories of "African" ways and knowledges, and that's why you can only get so far "inside" them before smokescreens go up. Guardians Of The Flame, indeed, according to that. Still not sure how far to buy into all of that in terms of "actually true" vs "remembered true", but finding stuff like that that connects it all up...far me it from me to be dismissive of the notion in general form, ya' know?

Treme hinted at some of this, lots of scattered but really tantalizing hints,,. and that really got me to wondering some more, because Donald Harrison, a Chief himself, seems to have had the ear of that show's producers, so...who knows? One thing's for sure though - those guys are about more than hanging out and sewing beads all year long just to show up for a parade or two..or then just becoming "cultural treasures". Or used to be, anyway...in today's World Gone Wrong, who knows for sure?

[jeffcrom]

Thanks to Jeff who can always be counted on for the most wide-ranging BFT possible. He did inspire me to create a new acronym which I hope will catch on (see below) so as Sangrey says, Saul Goode.

Track 1: Trumpet had me in mind of Blue Mitchell, off the Last Dance LP but then the guitar came in and I knew that was wrong. Liked the trumpet and piano, the guitar ... not so much.

ID'd by Sangrey as Ira Sullivan, produced by Chuck. Nobody has liked the guitar so far - including me!

Track 2: A Monk tune to start but I lost interest once he moved away from it.

I agree that the Monk portion of this medley is the most compelling. I had my reasons for including the following tune, though.

Track 3 (and 4): two ancient tracks that Jeff loves and I can always take or leave. Just not intriguing enough to want to investigate further.

I was hoping that the fabulous clarinet playing on both of these tracks might make some converts.

Track 5: HAFC DKDC and needless to say, NMCOT. But why go with old acronyms? Here's my new one: IHTTTFTO. I Had to Turn The Fucking Thing Off. :beee:

JC sez

Track 6: WOH! From the awful to the sublime. That organ groove has got to be Charles Earland, but I have to say I have so many of his late-career recordings I can't say where this one comes from. Definitely no Eric Alexander in this band, though.

Fully ID'd by MG. As I said earlier, I programmed this after track 5 as a reward for those who couldn't stand the earlier track - which I love, by the way.

Track 7: Liked this a lot but no clue on the band or vocalist.

I'm not sure the vocalist has been identified, but he's not such a much. All other details can be found above, courtesy of MG.

Track 8: Maybe I'm in a strange listening place right now but this one of those 'edgy' tunes that I might dig but today I am not.

Fair enough.

Track 9: I like this but something tells me this saxophonist is some post-Trane artist who I normally wouldn't listen to, doing the standards thing, maybe for Venus?

Pretty much on target. It looks like Jim found this one - check out post #30.

Track 11: IHTTTFTO

I may start using that acronym. Not for this track, though.

Track 12: Lot of pleasure in this but no clue.

Glad you enjoyed it.

Track 13: But where's Ella? I guess I thought of her because I first heard this tune on her last record, which I know is painful listening to most but I kept it and don't hate it, and my first exposure to Armstrong was on their Verve LPs.

This is later than Louis/Ella. Very late, which is one reason I included it.

Track 14: Maybe I'm the only one to think this but I was reminded of that recurring SNL sketch with Will Ferrell and some female cast member, playing and singing for bored students.

I think that Jonathan and Darlene would be shocked and insulted by the comparison. They're artists!

Whew! I escaped relatively unscathed. Glad there was some stuff you enjoyed.

a-HA!

Nailed it! Recorded 1967/68, but not released until 2003 (although I think "Smoke Gets In Your Eyes" may have shown up earlier in a Keith Jarrett anthology). This album is every bit as all over the place as my BFT. More later....

Does #12 predate Sugar Boy's version? Really interesting if so....

The closest I've ever seen the recording date of #12 pinned down to is "mid 1940's." I'm thinking mid-to-late 40's myself.

Dan - regarding # 13, check out the intermission music I posted to tide me over during the time that I figured Jeff to be preparing his response to my response. It's my favorite version of this tune bar none, Ella w/Basie, and AFAIK, not all that widely known. It was what I thought of while listening to the Jack Sheldon version presented by Jeff.

I enjoyed it, and was not previously familiar with it. Since there's really no mystery about track 13, I'll say that, as touching as the singing is, the part that intrigues me most is the short trumpet solo.

Edited May 5, 2013 by jeffcrom

[JSngry]

Does #12 predate Sugar Boy's version? Really interesting if so....

The closest I've ever seen the recording date of #12 pinned down to is "mid 1940's." I'm thinking mid-to-late 40's myself.

whoa....

[jeffcrom]

Does #12 predate Sugar Boy's version? Really interesting if so....

The closest I've ever seen the recording date of #12 pinned down to is "mid 1940's." I'm thinking mid-to-late 40's myself.

whoa....

Yeah. It's a great record, and it's an "important" recording, and I could have asked the guy about it, but I didn't know about it when I sat in his living room.

[JSngry]

I wonder if he "knew what he was doing" in terms of the lyrics or was just stringing together some common community vernacular. Was he an Indian, or close around to the Indians, or was he just a local guy who sang some songs?

I hear tell of people SCARED of the Indians, thought they were crazy/dangerous/all of the above. Remember in an early Treme, Big Chief killed him somebody who had stole his tools. Remember that?

The whole Indian thing, coming to it from the outside, waaaay outside like I do, I just never know exactly what to make of what, which used to be the whole point, I think, at least until things started getting "touristy", if you know what I mean. And even now, I wonder...are there one or two old guys left who can still tell it all? And who will they tell it to? And what will be done with it after it gets told?

But I don't need to hear that record any more to think about it...like, ok, it was very local, you say, so if it was some local guy who had a band, they probably played in local clubs that didn't have any air-conditioning. Can you imagine what that kind of R&B played all night long in a humid southern club would have sounded like if it was in your face in a room full of people and no air-conditioning?

It's that type of stuff that you can't hear on the record, because it may or may not be there. But in real life, you know it was.

Fascinating record...

[jeffcrom]

I wonder if he "knew what he was doing" in terms of the lyrics or was just stringing together some common community vernacular. Was he an Indian, or close around to the Indians, or was he just a local guy who sang some songs?

Fascinating record...

I don't know if he ever masked as an Indian. Maybe not - he was a Downtown French Quarter New Orleanian, and the Indian culture started Uptown. But he grew up in the city while all that stuff was going on.

He was a great musician, and kind of a New Orleans griot.

And I'm probably giving away too much too early, but who cares? I enjoy the conversation about the music more than the ID game: he plays on track 4 as well.

[jeffcrom]

I hear tell of people SCARED of the Indians, thought they were crazy/dangerous/all of the above. Remember in an early Treme, Big Chief killed him somebody who had stole his tools. Remember that?

The HBO show aside, masking as an Indian on Mardi Gras was a dangerous activity early in the 20th century. Many people were hurt or killed in encounters between tribes. As time passed, the bloodshed (thankfully) morphed into ritual street theater - the tribes would fight "with needle and thread" rather than with clubs and knives.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

6 - Yes! Gotta probably be Charles Earland with that propulsion. Love the trumpet on this one also (think of it being Virgil Jones with Earland on the Prestige stuff).

Good ears - Earland, indeed. The Magnificent Goldberg identified this track on the first day - "Key Club Cookout" from Living Black!, live at the Key Club in Newark, 1970. Virgil Jones is a good guess, but the trumpet player is one Gary Chandler. He made two albums with Earland, appeared on Abdullah Ibrahim's African Marketplace, and made one album under his own name, Outlook, on the Eastbound label. Maybe I should try to track that one down.

Gary Chandler made 2 albums for Eastbound. 'Outlook' was one. The other was Bill Mason's 'Gettin' off', which had Hubert Laws, Wilbert Longmire, Idris Muhammad, Gordon Edwards & Ornette Coleman on congas Both are available on an Ace twofer, which you can pick up at a reasonable price from Amazon USA, here

http://www.amazon.com/Gettin-Outlook-Bill-Mason-Chandler/dp/B00004TTOQ/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1367766868&sr=1-1&keywords=bill+mason+gettin%27+off

Don't delay - both albums are great!

MG

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I’ve done some thinking and research about that tune ‘Off shore’ because it's just interesting. I only could get that Budd Johnson because I happen to have Earl Bostic’s version of the tune. The thing that confused me to start off with is that Budd’s approach to the tune, and the kind of arrangement, is so much like Earl’s. So, had Budd heard Earl’s version? I think he must have. Earl’s version was recorded on 4 October 1953, Budd’s on 5 November. Would Earl’s have been released by then? Don’t know for sure. But would that have been the only way Budd would/could have heard it – ie if it had been released.

Lord’s discography shows that another version was recorded on 9 September, by someone called Mat Matthews, for Brunswick/Coral, with Benny Weeks (g), Ike Isaacs (b) and Walter Bolden (not the gospel organist, I assume) (d). But Matthews played accordion! So I guess his approach would have been different.

No other earlier versions are included in Lord’s discography, (though the Sauter-Finnegan orchestra broadcast the tune in November 1953 and Herman’s band broadcast it twice in the summer of 1954), but two other nearly contemporaneous versions were on the pop charts. The first, by a harmonica (!) virtuoso called Leo Diamond, on the Ambassador label (1005), entered the chart on 3 October 1953 and stayed 5 weeks, peaking at #14. A fair sized hit. It seems to have been his own tune; the credits on my Bostic LP are to ‘Diamond’. The second was by Richard Hayman (another harmonica specialist) & his orchestra, on Mercury. That one didn’t get onto the chart until 2 January 1954, though when it was recorded, I don’t know. Anyway, Diamond’s was evidently the original version.

The plot thickens – Ambassador Records was a Los Angeles indie label, whose President was Abe Diamond and Executive Leo Diamond! ‘Off shore’ was the label’s only hit, though the firm had been around since 1947. Since it was the label’s only hit, it’s strange that Galen Gart’s ARLD doesn’t give a release date for 1005; 1003 came out in January 1952; 1006 in November 1953.

By 1957, Leo Diamond had moved to New York and was co-proprietor, with Benjamin Schur, of Michelle Records, a subsidiary of Eldee Music. I assume this would have been Leo’s publishing company. My Bostic LP is a British release, so it doesn’t have US publishing details. Who’s the publisher on the Budd Johnson recording? Is it Eldee Music? Is it licenced by BMI or ASCAP?

We can see three things. First, there are likely to have been stock arrangements if two big bands of the day were using the tune for live broadcasts. And probably other big bands were falling in line, too. Second, if you’re making a cover of a current hit single, it makes sense to get the record out pretty damn quick, or there’s no point, and Syd Nathan’s operation could definitely get singles out within a few days of the recording date, if Syd wanted that. Third, that Earl Bostic’s version was the only likely model for Budd to follow, since he wasn’t using a stock arrangement and since neither Earl’s nor Budd’s would have been aimed at the straight pop market.

Does this make sense? I kind of want it to make sense because Budd follows Earl so closely. And that’s probably why he sounded a bit like Hodges; if you’re trying to imitate one inimitable player, it’s not altogether unlikely that you’ll wind up sounding like another inimitable player

MG

[jeffcrom]

Your post triggered several things - first of all, the realization that I have that Mat Mathews 78! I just played it; it's a little faster than Budd's version, but it has the same guitar licks answering the phrases of the melody.

And while I was researching the Atlantic recording in the process of assembling my BFT, I came across this, from the November 14, 1953 issue of Billboard:

Atlantic "Shore" Disk Out Fast...

Atlantic Records demonstrated unusual speed in getting out a new disk this week when the rhythm and blues label recorded alto sax star Budd Johnson doing an instrumental version of "Off Shore." The session was held yesterday (6) and the results were mastered and mothered the same day, with the disk scheduled to go on the presses today (Saturday). First shipments are set for Monday morning.

The Mathews record credits the tune to "Leo Diamond," Hanover Music Corp. The Johnson record says "Diamond-Graham," Critereon, ASCAP.

6 - Yes! Gotta probably be Charles Earland with that propulsion. Love the trumpet on this one also (think of it being Virgil Jones with Earland on the Prestige stuff).

Good ears - Earland, indeed. The Magnificent Goldberg identified this track on the first day - "Key Club Cookout" from Living Black!, live at the Key Club in Newark, 1970. Virgil Jones is a good guess, but the trumpet player is one Gary Chandler. He made two albums with Earland, appeared on Abdullah Ibrahim's African Marketplace, and made one album under his own name, Outlook, on the Eastbound label. Maybe I should try to track that one down.

Gary Chandler made 2 albums for Eastbound. 'Outlook' was one. The other was Bill Mason's 'Gettin' off', which had Hubert Laws, Wilbert Longmire, Idris Muhammad, Gordon Edwards & Ornette Coleman on congas Both are available on an Ace twofer, which you can pick up at a reasonable price from Amazon USA, here

http://www.amazon.com/Gettin-Outlook-Bill-Mason-Chandler/dp/B00004TTOQ/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1367766868&sr=1-1&keywords=bill+mason+gettin%27+off

Don't delay - both albums are great!

MG

Ordered.

[NIS]

Track 2 – So I think another version of this song was on another fairly recent BFT and I couldn't think of the name and I can't think of it again. The mind is a terrible thing to lose.

Track 3 – I really like this all around. There just seems to be great joy in the way these guys play. I don't know why I haven't collected more of this style.

Track 4 – Same comments as track 2, maybe more so. Looking forward to hearing about these two.

Track 5 – I'm not totally on board with this one but there is a pretty interesting combination of styles.

Track 8 - Another nice one for my taste. Particularly liked the trumpet playing.

Track 11 - The drumming and bass playing on this one kind of appealed to me. I thought the drummer maybe had a little Han Bennink thing going.

Track 12 – I just like this better every time I listen. Big fun.

Track 14 – Leave 'em laughing.

Thanks.

[NIS]

_{Just read through the comments. Found them interesting, even if I don't always follow you guys.}

_{I always kind of thought that I might be able to pick out Keith Jarrett but guess I was wrong.}

_{Glad I didn't suggest thinking the singer on 14 might be a man.}

_{Jeff, from your comments I'm pretty sure I know who track 12 is and I'm happy I liked it. Liner notes on the album I have by him say something along the lines of, if you have played this and are not smiling, you didn't listen.}

[jeffcrom]

Track 2 – So I think another version of this song was on another fairly recent BFT and I couldn't think of the name and I can't think of it again. The mind is a terrible thing to lose.

Not sure it's you - except for the obvious ones, Monk's tunes seem to take a lot of living with before you can reliably identify them.

And of course, there's another tune after "Monk's Mood."

Track 3 – I really like this all around. There just seems to be great joy in the way these guys play. I don't know why I haven't collected more of this style.

Track 4 – Same comments as track 2, maybe more so. Looking forward to hearing about these two.

Yes, these are excellent jazz, not "dixieland."

Track 5 – I'm not totally on board with this one but there is a pretty interesting combination of styles.

I found this track to be incredibly exciting. I'm still waiting for someone to be as turned on by it as I am.

Track 8 - Another nice one for my taste. Particularly liked the trumpet playing.

Glad you liked it. This is another one that blew me away when I first heard it.

Track 11 - The drumming and bass playing on this one kind of appealed to me. I thought the drummer maybe had a little Han Bennink thing going.

I wonder why the drummer sounds like Han Bennink....

Track 12 – I just like this better every time I listen. Big fun.

Ain't it great?

Track 14 – Leave 'em laughing.

Why do people keep saying things like that? Don't y'all appreciate artistry?

Thanks.

Thank you for listening and posting. By the way, I'll be in Nebraska in a few weeks - just for a couple of days, and not the Omaha area, I don't think.

_{Jeff, from your comments I'm pretty sure I know who track 12 is and I'm happy I liked it. Liner notes on the album I have by him say something along the lines of, if you have played this and are not smiling, you didn't listen.}

Go ahead and spill the beans!

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Your post triggered several things - first of all, the realization that I have that Mat Mathews 78! I just played it; it's a little faster than Budd's version, but it has the same guitar licks answering the phrases of the melody.

And while I was researching the Atlantic recording in the process of assembling my BFT, I came across this, from the November 14, 1953 issue of Billboard:

Atlantic "Shore" Disk Out Fast...

Atlantic Records demonstrated unusual speed in getting out a new disk this week when the rhythm and blues label recorded alto sax star Budd Johnson doing an instrumental version of "Off Shore." The session was held yesterday (6) and the results were mastered and mothered the same day, with the disk scheduled to go on the presses today (Saturday). First shipments are set for Monday morning.

The Mathews record credits the tune to "Leo Diamond," Hanover Music Corp. The Johnson record says "Diamond-Graham," Critereon, ASCAP.

6 - Yes! Gotta probably be Charles Earland with that propulsion. Love the trumpet on this one also (think of it being Virgil Jones with Earland on the Prestige stuff).

Good ears - Earland, indeed. The Magnificent Goldberg identified this track on the first day - "Key Club Cookout" from Living Black!, live at the Key Club in Newark, 1970. Virgil Jones is a good guess, but the trumpet player is one Gary Chandler. He made two albums with Earland, appeared on Abdullah Ibrahim's African Marketplace, and made one album under his own name, Outlook, on the Eastbound label. Maybe I should try to track that one down.

Gary Chandler made 2 albums for Eastbound. 'Outlook' was one. The other was Bill Mason's 'Gettin' off', which had Hubert Laws, Wilbert Longmire, Idris Muhammad, Gordon Edwards & Ornette Coleman on congas Both are available on an Ace twofer, which you can pick up at a reasonable price from Amazon USA, here

http://www.amazon.com/Gettin-Outlook-Bill-Mason-Chandler/dp/B00004TTOQ/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1367766868&sr=1-1&keywords=bill+mason+gettin%27+off

Don't delay - both albums are great!

MG

Ordered.

Cor, you DO have some unusual records, Jeff!

I like Billboard's ref to Budd as an 'alto sax star'

Also like the fact that people seemed to be on the fiddle over credits and publishing, even before Alan Freed became king.

Atlantic's speediness does indicate they were trying to cash in on a hit; or a possible Bostic hit version of a hit. There'd be no reason for Budd to do that on alto except for Earl Bostic, I've just reaslised.

Glad you picked up the Chandler/Mason. I'd forgotten Chandler was on 'African marketplace'. Must dig that out.

MG

[NIS]

So, maybe I'm wrong and get egg on my face but I think the singer on 12 is the wonderful Danny Barker. This is totally from the comments, not from my ears. My record of his is from much later in his life.

As for your trip North, I hope the weather is better for you in a couple of weeks. Temp was is the fortys yesterday and we got a couple inches of snow last week. First measureable May snow in a long time.

[jeffcrom]

So, maybe I'm wrong and get egg on my face but I think the singer on 12 is the wonderful Danny Barker. This is totally from the comments, not from my ears. My record of his is from much later in his life.

However you figured it out, you are correct, sir! Now maybe someone will track down more info on this unusual record.

And heck, even if it wasn't an "official" guess, I'm giving you a point for recognizing Han Bennink - it is indeed him on track 11.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

So, maybe I'm wrong and get egg on my face but I think the singer on 12 is the wonderful Danny Barker. This is totally from the comments, not from my ears. My record of his is from much later in his life.

However you figured it out, you are correct, sir! Now maybe someone will track down more info on this unusual record.

Oh, you played me some Danny Barker in the car 3 years ago. Was this one of those tracks?

MG